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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 88
Author
Your grading system is f#@ked
Archangel in Oz
19/09/2004
4:16:49 PM
Just an observation from a visiting Englishman, but....
your grading system really is f---ed. I went to the range wall in Melbourne today and after a recent comp the routes are graded e.g. 17-23. This means it is 17 at the start and 23 at the top. The idea being the better climber you are the higher up you fall off. I know it is only a wall but hellloooo. (What kind of comp has routes that only go up to 23 anyway?)

I am not saying the English system is best but we established a long time ago that sport routes and trad routes are two entirely different things and that one grading system does not work for both.

From my experience at the Melbourne wall it would appear that you Aussies can grade an individual move with a Ewbank grade. So you use the system to describe the difficulty of individual moves, sport climbs and multi pitch trad routes...... durrr that can't work. Sort it out.
Chris Sharma!
19/09/2004
5:57:48 PM
well Mr englishman
that is how comp routes work they are easy and then get hard at the top (eg the better climber gets to the top and the weak one falls down low).
What if everyone go to the top?
Maybe the comp was for little kids maybe 10 years old, 23 is not so easy if you are 10 hey.
English grades are the biggest wank. this is australia and this how it is over here if you dont like walls that the grampians and araps has to offer i reccomend going back to ravins tor, or the over hyped 6 meter gritstone. till then go and enjoy.
YOU need to sort your self out pom...
Sharma thats Chris Sharma.................
Archangel in Oz
19/09/2004
6:36:37 PM
Ha ha ha ha ha. Even 10 year olds in England climb 8a (that's a french grade and means harder than almost all you Australian pussys climb).

btw the point was about giving a route a stupid grade (17-23) not that .....durrrrr it gets harder toward the top.

'English grades are the biggest wank.' I did say I wasn't advocating English grades, just different ones. At least we had the intelligence to see that English grades don't work on sports climbs and bouldering so we changed them to a better system.

'This is how it is over here' ha ha ha ha ha ha. That is exactly my point most of you haven't set foot in a place where they understand the difference between one kind of climbing and another and look at the mess. But you couldn't see it is a mess, because it is your quaint old fashioned system, and you don't know any different. How terribly sweet. Do you have a better argument than this is the way it has always been done.

Just out of interest I will be on the world's best crag Stanage on Saturday, providing it isn't raining.
Joe
19/09/2004
6:55:43 PM
I think I was the person at the wall who explained this system to you... Yes it is a f---ed system, and is very ambiguous and dumb. Firstly, get your shit together. The comp went harder than 23, and who really gives a f--- anyway!! Do you realise how much of a c--k you sound like... writing about an indoor grading system?!! Whatever dude, they are peices of f---in' plastic bolted onto a wall. THEY DON'T MEAN SHIT! And that's not how we grade, it's just a stupid comp thing. Get over it... have fun in Stanage.
kieranl
19/09/2004
8:11:49 PM
This lad seems to have touched a nerve. It seems there are at least a couple "who really gives a f--- anyway" judging by the replies.
Stanage is certainly the best gritstone crag in the world even though I preferred Burbage South for the peace and quiet.
Archangel in Oz
19/09/2004
8:45:12 PM
Hmmm there obviously seems to be something lost in translation here (although I was being slightly cheeky). I am not complaining about your wall (which is very good) or your 'indoor system'. It isn't your grades that are f#@ked. That's your system, however you want to do it is fine. (Apologies if you thought I was referring to you specifically).

What I was trying to suggest was that if you apply the Ewbank system to everything it can't possibly work. Everything includes multi pitch trad routes, single pitch clip-ups and the first couple of moves on a wall in Melbourne.

Other than being told 'the English system is wank so there' I haven't heard any real defence of how your system (the Australian) is so much better. I am coming back later in the year and hope to get my head round the issue a bit more after doing a lot more routes (on rock).

I thought you Aussie's knew how to sledge?

tmarsh
19/09/2004
9:04:41 PM
You want a history lesson?

"Grading takes the following into consideration. Technical difficulty,
exposure, protection and other smaller factors. As these are more or
less all related to each other, I have rejected the idea of 3 or 4 grades,
i.e. one for exposure, one for technical difficulty, one for protection etc.
Instead, the climb is given its one general grading, and if any of
the other factors is outstanding, this is stated verbally in the short
introduction to that climb
"

Your understanding of the Ewbank system is clearly at a fairly simplistic
level if you expect to shit out the above comments and expect a serious
response. How about I post 'duh you Poms use lots of numbers and letters
when you grade climbs' on the Planet Fear site and see how seriously I get
taken?

> I thought you Aussie's knew how to sledge?

Sledging you would be about as pointless as sledging the English cricket team.

tim
Archangel in Oz
19/09/2004
10:47:12 PM
Forgive my ignorance. Can I have the reference please. Admittedly it is difficult to come from having used different systems around the world for different styles of climbing to your all encompassing system. It does seem weird though to give a climb a grade that would effectively remain the same whether it was a total clip up or death from the top drawer trad route.

And yes my knowledge is simplistic but then it isn't exactly a complex system. Can we also get over the concept that I am suggesting the British system is best I am not.

Times do change though and they certainly have since the Ewbank system was first used.

tmarsh
20/09/2004
8:44:41 AM
> Forgive my ignorance.

Ignorance is forgiven, but popping up on an Australian climbing board
to say 'your grading system is f---ed', then admitting that you don't
understand the system makes you out for a f---wit.

> And yes my knowledge is simplistic but then it isn't exactly a complex system.

That may be so, but some of its key features are clearly beyond you.
While the number grade is an overall grade, the description of the
climb should indicate if there are any factors that stand out
. Assume
two routes, identical in every respect. One is fully bolted, the other has
you doing a dicey mantle in a deathfall position. They would not be graded
the same, and the chop route would probably have a note of the scariness
involved. Contrary to what some people on Chockstone think, the Ewbank
grade is not the grade of the hardest move on the route, but an overall
grade taking all of the factors into consideration.

> Can we also get over the concept that I am suggesting the British system
> is best I am not.

I didn't for one minute think that you were. I was trying to point out that if I
popped up on a UK board carrying on the way you are, I could expect a
very hostile reception.

The excerpt re grading was a quote from the man himself, found in the
preface to the Bill Andrews 'Northern Grampians' guide, although you'll
find much the same words in other guides.

tim

Damietta
20/09/2004
2:01:14 PM
Welcome back Tasch! We missedya!

shaggy
20/09/2004
2:16:08 PM
Is this guy for real or am I just buying into some crap?
I think that you just need to climb some of our rock outdoors, using our system, and then make a judgement. I was up at Araps this summer for several months, and in that time I climbed with many people from all over the world on sprot and trad, and by the time they all left, they were all wondering why their cliombing areas were not using a grading system like ours, that was all but 1 pom, but he was just and idiot anyway, so 1 out of about 50 must say something.
Fozz
20/09/2004
2:16:36 PM
Bloody whinging pom
maxdacat
20/09/2004
7:08:05 PM
>Other than being told 'the English system is wank so there' I haven't
>heard any real defence of how your system (the Australian) is so much better.

In defense of the Australian system i would say that I like it's simplicity and having climbed both sport and trad there it seems to work for both....i guess i grew up not really thinking about it having never been exposed to an alternative.

I think the benefits of that simplicity are that you just try and climb and don't worry so much about the technical grade of the pitch vs the "head" grade which i think is what the british system addresses. If you want to know that then read the guide or ask someone or just try it. I guess that you do get in to the situation of some climbs being considered tough for the grade or blatently over or undergraded, but a bit of advance knowledge can sort this out. After all a pice of rock is a piece of rock....you either got up it or you didn't. Over focusing on the grading detracts from that.

I don't think i ever felt like I suffered through lack of information. What I think Australia might want to do is assign a rating system for pro on trad climbs as they do in the states....but then again the guide should point this out along with loose rock and other stuff.

I think it's just horses for courses and what the locals are comfortable. I certainly wouldn't expect the brits to change their slightly overcomplicated way of doing things. What I would point out is that they might want to align their sport grades with the french....i mean all the would have to do is shift the numbers up one so a 6a becomes a 7a.

anyway nothing wrong with posting with an inflammatory subject line as it gets people attention....though i can't comment on the gradings in comps as i've never been in one.
Archangel in Oz
21/09/2004
9:06:30 AM
I broke the first law of being an immigrant "Don't slag anything Australian" and it is quite funny to read the anti Pom rhetoric. If in doubt slag Pommies for err being Pommies and try to get a cricket reference in somewhere.

I have two more Australian cities to visit before returning to the UK on Thursday so haven't had much time to devote to this which is a bit lame after kicking it off. And yes it is also lame after not having done many routes but I have tried (see find climbers forum).

I had a brief look at the recommended threads and it seems like your ethics are in (choose word carefully) a bit of a mess also.

Do people in Australia say "I climb 24" (or whatever grade) as this would seem to be fairly meaningless without the subsequent description of what kind of 24 and the style of ascent. Clearly a proud young redpointer working a 24, is a totally different animal to a gnarly old trad climber flashing bold non-bolted 24s OS. When I say it's f#@ked, that's what I mean. The system obviously works fine to describe the overall technical difficulty of a route, but that's it and there is an obvious dichotomy.

People also seem to use it to describe a single move I have heard lots of times thus far someone say a route has moves of such a grade (and clearly that's how it is used at the Range). I understand from above that it isn't supposed to be used for that purpose. You tell me how it works.

As for Arapilian statistics...Well obviously I stand corrected 50 to 1 would seem to be incontrovertible evidence. Strewth bloody Poms eh. Part of the reason for moving to this part of the world is to climb at this crag that everyone talks so much about and I absolutely can't wait to get down there.

Wasn't Ewbank a Pom anyway? If so you would have thought he would have known how to (no I can't go there you Aussies are just too sensitive to sarcasm).

rodw
21/09/2004
9:38:39 AM
Love a good Aussie/Pom slanging thread.

Re Grades, its just a guide anyway, and anyone that says they climb 24 is a bit of a goose, should say hardest Ive climbed is a 24 and clarify if sport or trad if they need to quantify it, but really why try?

Who cares about grades, you start up soemthing and you cant do it, back off and go climb something else. It dosnt matter what system you use, where in the world you are, someone, somewhere will say that system sucks and you should use this...blah,blah blah.

And as to finding climbing partners, you kight tyr next time organising yourself at least a few days before, rather than getting all poppy, cause everyone didn't offer at a moments notice.
Archangel in Oz
21/09/2004
9:44:58 AM
On 21/09/2004 rodw wrote:

>
>And as to finding climbing partners, you kight tyr next time organising
>yourself at least a few days before, rather than getting all poppy, cause
>everyone didn't offer at a moments notice.
>
Ah yes good point. I not sure I can expect Melbourners queuing up to take me climbing on a next (more organised) visit now either. Damn. Clearly, forward planning is not one of my strong areas.
dalai
21/09/2004
10:15:17 AM
I think the biggest issue here is that you based your view on the Ewbank grading system on one afternoon visit to an indoor wall...

As for the comp climbs and grades
1/ Comp routes are designed to get progressively harder the higher they go with the aim of splitting the field, which don't make great training routes after the competition but why the difficulty was listed as a split grade.
2/ As for comp routes shouldn't be that easy... How do you get interest in a sport if there are not easier categories?

I have climbed globally and used most grading systems. Each system has it's pro's and con's, with none in my mind being better than the next. Each approach has it's own limitations and the Ewbank system manages it's limitations with the extra information afforded through guide books.
Archangel in Oz
21/09/2004
4:28:10 PM
On 21/09/2004 dalai wrote:
>I think the biggest issue here is that you based your view on the Ewbank
>grading system on one afternoon visit to an indoor wall...

Actually based on one day in the Blue Mountains, Perth Wall, a wall in Sydney a limited amount of bouldering in Sydney. And various conversations. In the past four weeks.

>As for the comp climbs and grades
>1/ Comp routes are designed to get progressively harder the higher they
>go with the aim of splitting the field, which don't make great training
>routes after the competition but why the difficulty was listed as a split
>grade.

You are missing the point. I don't give a monkey's about competions, competition grades or how blue compares to yellow. I am not bothered by the fact that the routes get progressively harder. I am entirely comfortable with that concept. I simply made a flippant remark and I do think giving one route a grade 17-23 is stupid, which it would appear the people at the wall agree with. But it is only a wall so to use the Australian parlance "who cares!"

The concept I was trying to use the Melbourne wall to illustrate was that, by so doing they are effectively using the Ewbank system to grade an individual move (or two). Therefore extending your much beloved grading system to cover sport routes, trad routes and single moves and my background in crap cricket, wank grades and whinging can't see how that can work effectively.

>2/ As for comp routes shouldn't be that easy... How do you get interest
>in a sport if there are not easier categories?

This is the most ridiculous question I have ever heard. How do you get someone interested in climbing? Enter them in a climbing competition are you serious, maybe I have moved to Mars.

>I have climbed globally and used most grading systems. Each system has
>it's pro's and con's, with none in my mind being better than the next.
>Each approach has it's own limitations and the Ewbank system manages it's
>limitations with the extra information afforded through guide books.

At last some sense. But I have Tim telling me that Ewbank doesn't describe an individual move and that trad routes will be graded harder if more dangerous. Well the (strictly conversational) evidence I have is to the contrary. Obviously I need to get some miles in and maybe I'm ranting because I haven't done any proper climbing for a few weeks.

Tim why don't you put a post on Planet Fear, or Rock Talk if that's what you mean, as if you have looked sideways at the Arapiles from an aeroplane you will have done more climbing than 90% of the tools on the latter site certainly.

So we are agreed then the Ewbank system grades moves, sport and trad routes and grades trad harder if more dangerous. Just so I know.
dalai
21/09/2004
4:59:00 PM
On 21/09/2004 Archangel in Oz wrote:
On 21/09/2004 dalai wrote:

>>2/ As for comp routes shouldn't be that easy... How do you get interest
>>in a sport if there are not easier categories?
>
>This is the most ridiculous question I have ever heard. How do you get
>someone interested in climbing? Enter them in a climbing competition are
>you serious, maybe I have moved to Mars.

Obviously I wasn't detailed enough for you to offer such a pedantic reply. Should read "How do you get people interested in sport climbing competitions if there are not easier categories?"

If the concept of the Ewbank grading system is so scary, shocking and repulses you so much, you could just go to a cliff sans guide book and just climb!! Or I am sure there are a few early guide books in the State libraries which still use the old grading system you hold so dear.

Also for saying England has taken the high moral ground with grading... The technical grade is still listed for many boulder problems. Even the newer B grading which is Englands own version of V grades don't match, only adding to the mess.



rodw
21/09/2004
5:56:36 PM
where in the Blueys did you go?

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