Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Let´s Harden UP!!!!!!!!!!!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

28-Sep-2004
2:57:47 PM

On 28/09/2004 kenny wrote:
>i completly agree that it can be difficult to take a hand off to stick
>some pro in.
>it can make the climbing seem harder but i think its better to grade
>for the climbing.

What ??

Why is it that people who gravitate to climbing (as it presently is, at any given point in time), want to throw out the history that precedes them?
Ewbank Grading System IS our collective history, no matter how you feel about its short-comings.

... Or am I reading this post incorrectly??

(I'm with shiltz on this).


shiltz

28-Sep-2004
4:22:04 PM

You aren't grading the difficulty of placing the pro, or the difficulty of the climbing, or the exposure on their own. The Ewbank grade attempts to wrap up all of these things into a single number that allows somebody reading a guidebook to get an idea of the relative difficulty of one climb compared to another.
For sport routes the protection is easier and so the overall grade primarily relates to the difficulty of the climbing. For trad routes the other factors can have a larger impact on the overall grade. In this way the same grading system can work for both types of climbing. Otherwise we would definitely need a system more like the English one.


mousey

28-Sep-2004
5:11:51 PM

which is why many climbs get downgraded after they've had shiny rings put in to bring them out of the dark ages


IdratherbeclimbingM9

28-Sep-2004
5:15:01 PM

On 28/09/2004 Mighty Mouse wrote:
>to bring them out of the dark ages
Sheer profanity !

kenny

30-Sep-2004
11:13:01 AM

i mean grade for the moves not if you decide to place a fiddly little wire in at the crux.
know what im saying.that way you can have some climb graded 23 that doesnt take into acount
the run out climbing with fidly gear, and everyones going to have a more joyful experience.
although i havnt climbed harder then 26 i know i would prefer to climb a route that is hard for me
that is graded for the difficulty of the movments then have it be some softy graded due to
exposure,runouts or hard gear placments.
cheers.
i know i didnt write it very clearly before.
apropos,i do like doing routes placing the gear on lead but i just dont we need to be so contrived.


Iser

30-Sep-2004
11:42:58 AM

that way you can have some climb graded 23 that doesnt
>take into acount
>the run out climbing with fidly gear, and everyones going to have a more
>joyful experience.

Personally I find it rather UNenjoyable to be on a climb that's at my limit (in a 'moves' sense), only to find myself ABOVE my limit psychologically. Maybe its just me, but a runout, exposed climbs seem HARDER than than fully bolted, sheltered little numbers, even if there is a sense of similitude between the 'moves' themselves. HARDER = higher grade, no?
Is this whole thread just a mutant facsimile of the 'sport' vs 'trad' debate?


Ben

30-Sep-2004
5:02:59 PM

Based on the following assumptions:

* the ideal/prefered method of climbing is to lead the climb (generally accepted I think, we tend not to grade climbs by how hard they are to toprope)

* if a climb is a trad climb then ideally it should be lead ground up, placing gear as you go, no preplacements etc. (I'm unsure if sports climbs should be prehung or not, and don't really care, whatever takes your fancy )

I believe that the grade assigned should be reflective of the style of climb (trad/sport) done ground up including the entire experience. If placing gear halfway through an awkward move makes the climb harder, great - lets factor that in so that the grade can still be used by the climber at the base to decide if the climb is challenging, boring or too hard/dangerous for them.

If it's likely that the climb will be frequently done in a different manner to the original ascent (ie serpentine on preplaced gear) then it may be helpful for the guidebook to note that and offer a suggested grade. This seems to be the case for Serpentine - if people want to argue that it should be 28 if climbed placing gear on lead, 26 on preplaced - fine. But the Ewbank system SHOULD take such difficulties at least somewhat into account.

mikl law

30-Sep-2004
11:41:30 PM

1) Toproping isn't climbing- it's a method of giving gym bunnies fresh air.
2) It's been said lots of times, sports grades are often a bit soft compared to trad routes given the same grade. I think different systems would make sense.

Dave C

1-Oct-2004
12:42:17 AM

Wouldn't something like a simple suffix added to the number grade (eg a single letter) be a simpler way to differentiate between different types of route. It shouldn't require a completely different system the way they've done it over here.
Maybe something like:
a = sport climb - all fixed gear
b = part fixed / part natural but still well-protected.
c = all natural gear, well protected
d = awkward/fiddly to protect, more run-out
e = poorly protected
f = death on a stick!!

PS This is only a suggestion, don't bite my head off!

kenny

1-Oct-2004
9:36:26 AM

i think that would be a choice thing to do although it might take away from the adventure
of unknown terrain if you know what i mean.
and you could call it the "old chickory scale"


Richard

1-Oct-2004
1:04:19 PM

On 1/10/2004 Stuck in UK wrote:
>Wouldn't something like a simple suffix added to the number grade >Maybe something like:
>a = sport climb - all fixed gear

As said many times before when dicussing the Ewbank system, that info should go in the climb description if it is something out of the ordinary. Re sports climbs being "soft", climbs should be graded for non-pre placed gear; if you pre place, you should expect to find it soft, hence no need to change the grade, you just need to be honest about how you climbed it...

There we go, end of story, no need to discuss grades ever again.....

(or is that a tad too optimistic ..?)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

1-Oct-2004
1:20:07 PM

On 1/10/2004 Richard wrote:
>There we go, end of story, no need to discuss grades ever again.....
>(or is that a tad too optimistic ..?)
Spot on I'd say.

Dave C

1-Oct-2004
5:29:32 PM

On 1/10/2004 Richard wrote:

>There we go, end of story, no need to discuss grades ever again.....
>
>(or is that a tad too optimistic ..?)

You're right, there shouldn't be any need to discuss. It's worked just fine for years but yes, you probably are being optimistic. The ongoing trad/sport debate over here with its parallel UK/French grading issue is enough to make you scream sometimes.

I would say leave well enough alone (I was just throwing an idea in before.)

BoaredOfTheRings

2-Oct-2004
9:30:23 AM

On 30/09/2004 Ben wrote:
This seems to be the case for Serpentine - if people want to argue that it should
>be 28 if climbed placing gear on lead, 26 on preplaced - fine.

It's actually 31 ground up, but nobody can dispute this grade because to my knowledge it still awaits a second ascent in this style.

The thing that really shits me is these people who question the accuracy of HB's grading. Surely not many of these people would have been exposed to as many climbs around these grades.

Robin

2-Oct-2004
12:36:23 PM

A climb has to be graded for the style in which it is intended to be climbed. If that's ground up, placing gear then placing the gear has to be incorporated into the climbing grade. Many, if not most, trad climbs the crux is not the technical difficulty of the moves but the combined difficulty of hanging around, placing gear then climbing.

A good example of this is Intermission (25), 40m. There would not be a single move on the climb over 23. Linking all the moves and climbing 40m probably makes it worth 24. Hanging around on sloping horizontals, pulling up to inspect placements and placing gear is what gives it 25.


Rock Weasel

2-Oct-2004
1:46:24 PM

So what is the hardest that you have onsight trad climbed Chris? Or have you at all, considering you describe the trad experience as being 'contrived' (usually a term employed to denigrate a skill one is not good at in climbing). Considering that you did not (and hence can never) climb Serpentine like HB did, your input to the grading of that climb is more or less worthless.

For some people (particularly from NSW) it seems that climbing is about bulging muscles, hard redpoints and big, impressive numbers. I know that this way of doing things means something and that it may even be popular. But I think that its popularity is diminishing...I think that climbers are realizing that they can either dog their way up a bolt ladder for the glorious tick, or they can do some adventure (what trad really is) climbing. The rewards are greater because there are more skills and greater risks.

So next time you commiserate the death of hard climbing, do so to your buddies rather than to a forum like this where your style of climbing may not be considered hard at all.

Onsight

3-Oct-2004
8:52:49 PM

Thank you, BoaredOfTheRings, Robin and Rock Weasel - for showing your understanding here.

On 2/10/2004 BoaredOfTheRings wrote:
>It's actually 31 ground up, but nobody can dispute this grade because
>to my knowledge it still awaits a second ascent in this style.
>The thing that really shits me is these people who question the accuracy
>of HB's grading…
Couldn’t agree more.

On 2/10/2004 Rock Weasel wrote:
>…Chris? …. Considering that you did not (and hence can never) climb Serpentine like
>HB did, your input to the grading of that climb is more or less worthless.
And that’s so true too.
--------------------------------

This “let’s down-grade Serpentine then” campaign is a disgrace.
This thread is a disgrace. It’s an insult to HB at the very least.

There is no reason why HB should have graded the route for anything BUT the ethical style which he used for his ascent. So, unless you have climbed Serpentine in accordance with the (very high) ethical standards that HB used for his ascent, then you are simply NOT QUALIFIED to dispute his grading for his style of ascent (and that’s 31).

To my knowledge, there is not a SINGLE climber in this country who has qualified themselves to dispute his grading of his route (for the style in which he climbed it).

For the record, the ethics HB used are a whole lot more than simply “ground up”. He discusses the ethics he used in detail in his interview on this web site (“gear-in-in-a-day” and “no-placing-gear-from-the-dog”).

As far as the grade for red-pointing Serpentine on pre-placed gear is concerned (a style most climbers who do the route seem happy with these days), well, it’s given the grade of 29 in the guidebook for a very good reason – and that’s because it’s the clear consensus grade amongst those who have climbed the route (in that style). If anyone has climbed the route (in that style), and genuinely feels differently, then go and tell it the producers of the relevant guidebooks etc so they can take your opinion into consideration.
--------------------------------

A few climbers seem to have confused the ethics HB’s used and the ethics most other climbers have used on Serpentine (some even seem to be doing this deliberately).

I believe the extent of this confusion is somewhat indicative of the lack of understanding of ethical issues — and the extent of the problem we have — in this country at the moment.


climbau

3-Oct-2004
9:15:23 PM

Onsight,
I agree, it is one thing to repeat a climb in the style intended and lobby for the adjustment of the grade, but to repeat in a bastardised fashion and then claim the original grade as being "soft" is something that I just can't comprehend.
Maybe those who bastardise a climbs style need to "Harden Up"?

Dave C

3-Oct-2004
9:32:43 PM

I was actually at Taipan Wall when HB was first trying the route (even did a couple of stints on belay duty.) All attempts were made leading from the belay cave upwards, placing the gear on the lead on the first attempt each day. Only once did HB actually work any of the moves after falling off (this is stretching the memory a bit but I don't remember him 'dogging' more than once.) I actually have photos taken from the ground the very first time he went on the route (no chalk anywhere above him.) It was some of the most impressive climbing I have ever seen and a great demonstration of HBs stamina and determination at the time.
It's great to find their are people willing to stand up for HBs original grading of the route after 16-odd years.


Mattos

4-Oct-2004
9:16:34 AM

The grade of the climb doesn't detract from the achievement of getting up it, unless you are only concerned with ticking climbs off your list...

There are 58 messages in this topic.