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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 32
Author
New Regulations
dalai
29-Sep-2022
12:40:32 PM
On 29-Sep-2022 Duang Daunk wrote:
>Yeah, but what has he done on grit?

He sold the Grit to the Pom's.

No one else wanted those short cliffs and he somehow sold the unsellable outcrops to the Brits who took the whole God's own rock BS hook line and sinker... ;)

harold
3-Oct-2022
7:57:01 AM
On 26-Sep-2022 gordoste wrote:
>I believe the list of parks this applies to is on page 8 of this document
>https://engage.vic.gov.au/download/document/28275
>

This list has Macedon Regional Park. Does that mean you are about to loose Camels??
dan_b
4-Oct-2022
5:50:45 PM
So many major decisions about parks seem to be made by people who have seemingly never set foot in them. I suspect this applies even to senior PV management.

Sadly it seems new, non-recurrent Parks users are prioritised well ahead of returning visitors as well.

I think the only reasonable response is quiet, considered disobedience.

gordoste
6-Oct-2022
12:20:15 PM
On 4-Oct-2022 dan_b wrote:
>So many major decisions about parks seem to be made by people who have
>seemingly never set foot in them. I suspect this applies even to senior
>PV management.
>
>Sadly it seems new, non-recurrent Parks users are prioritised well ahead
>of returning visitors as well.

Yes, because they pay more. The problem is viewing parks as a "resource" whose economic output needs to be maximised. A transition to traditional owners calling the shots is our best chance to fight back against this, but unfortunately the mindset has infected some traditional owners.


>I think the only reasonable response is quiet, considered disobedience.
dan_b
6-Oct-2022
1:59:53 PM
On 6-Oct-2022 gordoste wrote:

>Yes, because they pay more. The problem is viewing parks as a "resource"
>whose economic output needs to be maximised.

Iíd agree a tourist spends more on a single trip, but I believe recurrent users are actually economically more valuable. Iím a relative newcomer but now have well over 10 years of buying fuel, food, pub feeds, Nati pub raffles, gear and camping fees (when I rememberÖ) in the Grampians/Wimmera and have no doubt Iíve spent more over the long run than a single tourist.

A transition to traditional
>owners calling the shots is our best chance to fight back against this,
>but unfortunately the mindset has infected some traditional owners.
I would like to think this is the case, but I am highly, highly sceptical - I actually donít see a scenario where we as climbers benefit from this, admitting that our case is a small one of many, and far from the only consideration.

>>I think the only reasonable response is quiet, considered disobedience.
I think we just give it time, wait for this current government/parks management/local boots on the ground move on and memories will fade, bans will lapse etc. Barring serious injury Iíll still be climbing well after theyíve all gone.

Duang Daunk
6-Oct-2022
3:04:09 PM
On 6-Oct-2022 dan_b wrote:
> I think we just give it time, wait for this current government/parks management/local boots on the ground move on and memories will fade, bans will lapse etc. Barring serious injury Iíll still be climbing well after theyíve all gone.

Once upon a time I thought this about the proliferation of bolts.
Trouble is that they never went away, and the issue got worse.

Very few taxes etc once introduced have ever been rescinded.
Do you really believe climbers will get access back to North Head, Hanging Rock, Balls Pyramid, Crookneck etc, etc, and how about camping areas that are designated glamping only, etc, because some pen pushers move on?

Will a class action get your confiscated climbing gear back, let alone public access?
dan_b
7-Oct-2022
8:27:15 AM
I agree - once they are in, it would take a huge amount of work to have them wound back, hence fighting to keep access is still the highest priority. That said I think some crags we were climbing in were under previous SPAs from long ago that were largely forgotten about - happy to be corrected on this.

I was thinking more from the specific perspective of the Grampians which barring a few crags are harder to police.

harold
7-Oct-2022
9:52:02 AM
On 6-Oct-2022 gordoste wrote:
>On 4-Oct-2022 dan_b wrote:
>>So many major decisions about parks seem to be made by people who have
>>seemingly never set foot in them. I suspect this applies even to senior
>>PV management.
>>
>>Sadly it seems new, non-recurrent Parks users are prioritised well ahead
>>of returning visitors as well.
>
>Yes, because they pay more. The problem is viewing parks as a "resource"
>whose economic output needs to be maximised. A transition to traditional
>owners calling the shots is our best chance to fight back against this,
>but unfortunately the mindset has infected some traditional owners.
>
>
>>I think the only reasonable response is quiet, considered disobedience.

Yes the bureaucrats see Parks as a resource to be run as some sort of theme park with a look but don't touch policy and paved walkways. Think of the twelve apostles - there can be 10,000 visitors per day and most do a day bus trip from Melbourne, they step off the bus, walk 100m take a photo, get back on the bus and back to Melbourne. Might as well visit with a VR headset. What is the point. It's like a museum for middle class visitors. Also they see the Grampians in a similar way as the "Alpha's" in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and the savage reservations. The traditional owners will take the money of the "Alpha's" and do their bidding (even if it is unknowingly) because most people are corruptible when money and power is involved. Imagine if there was no money involved - different outcome.

Your best way out of this is if you could get the "traditional owners" psyched on climbing and off the government payroll. Imagine if there was a large number of indigenous people psyched on climbing and hiking (not as a career mind you, but as a recreation - because money corrupts everything). Imagine if there was no money to be made at all in Parks, and it was all managed by volunteers who are recreational users and independently crowd funded by users (like climbing always has been). Imagine if traditional owners also shared our dreams of one day being able to climb Serpentine on Taipan Wall. It would be an entirely different story. If you could set up an indigenous climbing organization, if we could abolish Parks Victoria you could maybe get somewhere. The greatest disruption to this us verses them nonsense would be tons of stoked indigenous rock climbers. (why do you think rock climbing parks employees are getting pushed aside?)

Another idea - what if all bolting permission and access was granted by an indigenous rock climbing committee. I'd be pretty happy with that. But they have to be competent active climbers. (not an academic being payed six figure salary by government who can't distinguish chalk from bird poop).

Alternatively, imagine a world where climbing is managed and funded by Government (through the intermediary of traditional owners). Where safety and access is controlled by Government. There is nothing about our sport that meets any sort of bureaucratic standards. Neither the way we access areas or the way we ascend the cliffs. Imagine it will be a replica of indoor regulated climbing with giant over engineered ring bolts at regulated intervals but with elevated steel walk ways to access.

Abolish Parks Victoria and hand management completely to volunteers. (what race they are I personally don't care either way - as long as they like climbing and being in nature)
One Day Hero
10-Oct-2022
2:50:07 PM
On 7-Oct-2022 harold wrote:
>Fantasy unicorn things

Dude, I think you are overestimating the percentage of the population who would ever be psyched on training up to climb Serpentine.

You are also severely, severely underestimating the percentage of the population who like money.

There are climbers that spent their entire youth at the crag who I believe would sell out for depressingly small bundles of cash. You could make the case that some of them have already done so.
chalkischeap
13-Oct-2022
5:37:40 AM
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/media/OEH/Corporate-Site/Documents/Parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/Aboriginal-joint-management/aboriginal-joint-management-model-220300.pdf
chalkischeap
13-Oct-2022
5:42:08 AM
Under this proposal, NSW park access outcomes will be varied, depending upon the topography of each park and the financial approach of each land council.

harold
1-Nov-2022
6:58:44 AM
On 10-Oct-2022 One Day Hero wrote:
>Tell him he's dreaming.

I guess you're right and we're doomed. I just hope they don't go after surfing next.

I guess most people seemed to have sold their souls the last few years... Sad. I hate what money does to people.


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There are 32 messages in this topic.

 

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