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9:20:59 AM |
On 15/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >Nice one. I do feel kinda obliged to go and do those routes next time I'm >in Tas. Alright Damo....I'll even come out of retirement for this...another film perhaps? Simey? |
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10:08:43 AM |
On 16/09/2016 shortman wrote: >On 15/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >>Nice one. I do feel kinda obliged to go and do those routes next time I'm in Tas. > >Alright Damo....I'll even come out of retirement for this...another film perhaps? Simey? Get back in the queue* shorty! * "I bet you $1,000 that you cannot onsight The Rage this Season in its current form" ~ We are still waiting for ODH to repeat that Blueys route with the contentious gear / run-out, that people were prepared to pay money to see, aren't we? ☺ |
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8:57:32 AM |
On 15/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >So Wendy..a good thing that most people don't put up new routes? Where >would the existing climbs have come from? Check out this wonderful video >from dave macleod..sums it up perfectly for me. >http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/dave-macleod-the-unknown This video is a crock of horse shit. He spouts on about the wonderfulness of new routing like it is some sort of higher spiritual realm. And then we watch footage of him climbing something where he has obviously top-roped the crap out of it beforehand (given the amount of chalk it is covered in). I fail to see the difference between him doing that, or anyone working any route near their limit. I would argue that the intensity of experience of going ground-up on any established route beats the shit out of establishing a new route which you have rap-inspected/rap-bolted/top-roped first. Even doing the first ascent of the Free Route on the Totem Pole wasn't particularly intense because I had rap-inspected it and bolted it. The defining moment was rapping down it for the first time and seeing it was possible. Climbing it was simply going through the motions. In fact it was far more intense going back to repeat it years later when I had forgotten all the moves and was cursing myself for having spaced the bolts near the top. I won't deny that establishing routes ground-up can be pretty memorable though. But I completely dismiss the idea that new routers do all this work for the greater good of the climbing community. New routers love doing new routes and that is their primary motivation. Like Wendy pointed out, track work and re-bolting is often a thankless task that is often far more beneficial to the climbing community. And the idea that only people who establish new routes can vouch for the quality of others new routes is absurd. I would say that they are often the worst people to ask if you are wanting an un-biased opinion. |
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9:10:55 AM |
On 13/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >I've always been impressed by climbers who maintain a high percentage >of quality in their new routes. If the potential is there, they develop. >If not, they walk away and let the shit-vultures pick at whats left. How >many crap routes have Giles, HB, Steve Monks, Crunch, and Fants put up >between them? I've gotta say that HB is letting his standards drop. I couldn't believe it when I heard that the recent line of bolts on the Bluffs (just right of Aristocrat) was his handiwork. What a pile. It is the equivalent of Bradman getting a duck in his final game and letting his batting average slip below 100. |
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11:17:19 AM |
>I would argue that the intensity of experience of going ground-up on any >established route beats the shit out of establishing a new route which >you have rap-inspected. > Except for 'Father O' of course Simey. Classic. (Kidding alright). Agree with your sentiments above. If you have time, check out the UKC thread referring to Grimer's JR podcast (John Redhead Interview - the Jamcrack podcast with Glenn Robbins is fantastic too). Anyway, one gets a feel for JR's bitterness at JD's multiple top ropes of Indian Face that JR was attempting ground up and taking 80' falls off - from 82' up! |
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8:52:30 PM |
On 20/09/2016 Andy P wrote: >Agree with your sentiments above. >If you have time, check out the UKC thread referring to Grimer's JR podcast >(John Redhead Interview - the Jamcrack podcast with Glenn Robbins is fantastic >too). Anyway, one gets a feel for JR's bitterness at JD's multiple top >ropes of Indian Face that JR was attempting ground up and taking 80' falls >off - from 82' up! I have listened to the Glenn Robbins podcast. It was typical Glenn - don't let the truth get in the way of telling a good story! But it was entertaining. I will have to listen to the Redhead interview to get a better understanding of his exploits. But I get the impression Redhead was far from an angel in his attempts on what later became Indian Face (E9)... placing a bolt (albeit on lead), painting pictures high on the wall. Even if Dawes did top-rope it prior to the first ascent, the route was still there for Redhead to go ground-up for the repeat if he wanted. Has anyone actually repeated Indian Face going ground-up? The irony of the British grading system is that routes are graded for ground-up ascents, yet the hardest routes rarely get done that way. I imagine when you repeated The Belles The Belles (E7) (Gogarth) in such style (ground up - no falls) that it would have been significant for the day. I bet if you had top-roped the route beforehand it would have been relatively straightforward for you (and you wouldn't have gone the wrong way!) in comparison to the the mind trip it turned out to be. By the way, how did Redhead approach the first ascent of The Belles? Did he establish it ground-up? Or did he rap inspect it first? |
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8:53:50 AM |
On 20/09/2016 simey wrote: > >This video is a crock of horse shit. He spouts on about the wonderfulness >of new routing like it is some sort of higher spiritual realm. And then >we watch footage of him climbing something where he has obviously top-roped >the crap out of it beforehand (given the amount of chalk it is covered >in).>>I fail to see the difference between him doing that, or anyone working >any route near their limit. >I would argue that the intensity of experience of going ground-up on any >established route beats the shit out of establishing a new route which you have rap-inspected/rap-bolted/top-roped first. >>But I completely dismiss the idea that new routers do all this work for >the greater good of the climbing community. New routers love doing new >routes and that is their primary motivation.>Like Wendy pointed out, track work and re-bolting is often a thankless task that is often far more beneficial to the climbing community.>And the idea that only people who establish new routes can vouch for the quality of others new routes is absurd. I would say that they are often >the worst people to ask if you are wanting an un-biased opinion. Damo does Donkeys and now Simey is into horses..that's a new line of route name inspiration..Simey's saddle Club? Hung Like Simey? What McCleod was doing was new and hard..grade 31 on trad, so of course he's going to work it, have it ticked up. But nevertheless he is establishing a new route, and that's what is satisfying to him..like you said, new routers love putting up new climbs, its their primary motivation..and memorable..way more memorable for him than repeating any grade 31 which he is more than capable of. Lyle Closs once wrote in Screamer magazine 1984, that climb names are a memorial to men's dreams..they dreamed and envisioned the route and then climbed it..just like you did for the Totem Pole. I certainly don't put up new climbs for the greater good of the climbing community, but if I bolt something, I'll do it safely and properly in case people want to repeat it. Its nice if they do, but I don't give a shit if it doesn't get repeated. As for new routers vouching for the quality of new routes, I don't think you got my original point. When One Day Donkey Boy heaped shit on routes at Hillwood and Blackwood rocks, it got me wondering whether I should listen or respect his opinion. It made me wonder whose opinion I respect on these matters, and I concluded it was the people who by virtue of a lot of pioneering on Tasmanian cliffs and who've put in some hard yards establishing the routes, who are most qualified and whose opinion has a lot of weight when it comes to judging the quality of my climbs. So I'm more likely to listen to Garry Philips, Nick Hankock, Neale Smith or Simon Parsons, than One Day Donkey Boy who I don't know from a bar of soap, or some un-named locals who mostly repeat routes, and have no idea of the effort that goes into putting up a climb. Thankyou to the people who built tracks and replaced bolts on the Tote..the climb itself sucks donkey dicks > > |
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9:26:45 AM |
Over on the right side of the keyboard there is a key marked 'Enter'. If you press that a couple of times after you press the '.', '?' or '!', your posts will be far easier to read. For example: >Damo does Donkeys and now Simey is into horses..that's a new line of route name inspiration..Simey's saddle Club? Hung Like Simey? > >What McCleod was doing was new and hard..grade 31 on trad, so of course he's going to work it, have it ticked up. But nevertheless he is establishing a new route, and that's what is satisfying to him..like you said, new routers love putting up new climbs, its their primary motivation..and memorable..way more memorable for him than repeating any grade 31 which he is more than capable of. > >Lyle Closs once wrote in Screamer magazine 1984, that climb names are a memorial to men's dreams..they dreamed and envisioned the route and then climbed it..just like you did for the Totem Pole. > >I certainly don't put up new climbs for the greater good of the climbing community, but if I bolt something, I'll do it safely and properly in case people want to repeat it. Its nice if they do, but I don't give a shit if it doesn't get repeated. > >As for new routers vouching for the quality of new routes, I don't think you got my original point. When One Day Donkey Boy heaped shit on routes at Hillwood and Blackwood rocks, it got me wondering whether I should listen or respect his opinion. It made me wonder whose opinion I respect on these matters, and I concluded it was the people who by virtue of a lot of pioneering on Tasmanian cliffs and who've put in some hard yards establishing the routes, who are most qualified and whose opinion has a lot of weight when it comes to judging the quality of my climbs. > >So I'm more likely to listen to Garry Philips, Nick Hankock, Neale Smith or Simon Parsons, than One Day Donkey Boy who I don't know from a bar of soap, or some un-named locals who mostly repeat routes, and have no idea of the effort that goes into putting up a climb. Thankyou to the people who built tracks and replaced bolts on the Tote..the climb itself sucks donkey dicks |
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9:35:04 AM |
Now that I can read your post Tastrad, I'm interested how someone establishing a route gives them a better idea of route quality. I would've thought climbing many routes in many different places would give you a better idea of route quality. For instance, if I had established every route at the You Yangs and Werribee Gorge but never climbed anywhere else, by your measure I'd be a very good judge of the quality of routes but I wouldn't have much experience of what good routes actually were. Whereas, if I'd climbed the same number of routes as the hypothetical above, all over Australia with a few trips to places like Yosemite, etc, wouldn't I have a much better idea of what a good route actually was, all without ever establishing one? |
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10:02:16 AM |
On 23/09/2016 ajfclark wrote: >Over on the right side of the keyboard there is a key marked 'Enter'. If you press that a couple of times after you press the '.', '?' or '!', your posts will be far easier to read. Thanks for that. It was becoming a bit tiresome retro-spacing some members posts. I blame phone-internet postings for the inability of people to get an overview of how they present. |
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11:03:47 AM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: > Lyle Closs once wrote in Screamer magazine 1984, that climb names are a memorial >to men's dreams. Ahh, yes. A very good article indeed. I reprinted it in the North Grampians guide back in the early 1990s. The article finishes: "And just as the printing of the names of the first to climb the route is a memorial to other mens dreams, so to climb that climb is to lie in another man's grave. The grave may be the same. But it was not dug for you." So it is in fact a reference to the first ascensionists and not the name of the climbs and it also suggests that females didn't do first ascents back then. Lyle wrote some good stuff, it's worth chasing up and reading the whole article. |
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11:35:38 AM |
On 23/09/2016 BA wrote: >Lyle wrote some good stuff, it's worth chasing up and reading the whole article. http://imgur.com/a/rPM4A |
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1:04:31 PM |
Yes Bill, its a terrific article and I got inspired by it. I was a little puzzled as to what he meant about repeating a climb is to lie in another man's grave. I messaged Lyle a couple of days ago and this was his reply: `Every little or big act we carry out in life is like digging our grave. It's taking us closer to death. I have taken some liberties with language and imagery in how I have written it. A second ascent is like re-living someone else's life, perhaps...but I'm not sure I thought it through when I wrote it though.' Now that McMahon has gone and I get on some of his climbs, I understand what Lyle meant..I've laid in McMahons grave many times, captured part of the dream or the reason why he was inspired to climb that bit of rock for the first time. That's part of the reason why I like putting up new climbs all the time, its the creativity, the discovery, its dreaming the vision and seeing it actualized on the rock. |
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2:07:54 PM |
Ajfclark wrote: I'm interested how someone establishing a route gives them a better idea of route quality. I would've thought climbing many routes in many different places would give you a better idea of route quality. Its more about whose opinion I respect, the relationship I have with them and their reputation and pioneering efforts , than the actual issue of route quality. If you came up to me and said half my routes at Hillwood are shit, I would say go f..k yourself; I enjoyed establishing them. But if I got to know you a bit and shared a few beers around a campfire, and learnt about your climbing experiences, and realized you've got a few runs on the board in terms of cliff development, and that you'd travelled widely, and that you can put your case in a reasonable manner, then I might be more inclined to listen to your opinion. People with a few new routes to their name do have more credibility in my book, because they understand the effort that goes into a route. The people that annoy me are the pricks that come along and whinge and say `oh its a bit dirty, or the bolts in the wrong place, or the moves don't flow, or the access is shit', and you know they are locals who've made hardly any effort to develop the sport, or visitors like One Day Donkey Boy who just spray criticism. Their opinion lacks credibility in my eyes. Case in point; I was raving about my effort in putting up the Whiskey Jim Crack (25), a splitter crack through a 9m roof and gave it 3 stars. HB onsighted it, had no qualms with the grade, but said it was a bit dirty and more like one star. I respect his opinion because of his climbing resume, his reputation and because I've climbed with him many times and he's a mate of mine. So the pioneers of Tassie climbing I mentioned earlier, I know most of them personally or by reputation; and it is their opinion who I would respect more than others, because of my relationship with them, or their pioneering efforts which speak for themselves. |
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3:04:40 PM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: > >Case in point; I was raving about my effort in putting up the Whiskey >Jim Crack (25), a splitter crack through a 9m roof and gave it 3 stars. >HB onsighted it, had no qualms with the grade, but said it was a bit dirty >and more like one star. > I think you just made part of ODH's point fo him!! |
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5:29:45 PM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >and realized you've got a few runs on the board in terms of cliff development This thought keeps popping up again and again and I don't understand why you think people who've never put up routes can never have any idea what makes a quality route? Sure, they might not understand the effort that goes into them. Sure they might not understand that something that looked f---ing awesome from the ground turned out to be a grovelly, dirty shitpile, or why the bolts sometimes don't end up in the places people want them, etc but surely they can still tell whether or not a route is quality without having done an FA. Here's an analogy for you: I've never built a road. I've driven on roads in Australia, France, Italy, China, India, etc. I can tell you that most of the roads we have here are pretty reasonable and the roads in India are pretty shit (the one from Agra to Rathambore National Park is a standout in my memory). I can tell you that putting unmark 45 degree speedbumps on a 100kmph highway is shit, etc Now if I'd built a road, I might have a better understanding of why some of those roads ended up being shit, but it wouldn't change the fact that they were shit or that someone who'd never built a road could tell they were shit. |
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8:17:43 AM |
On 23/09/2016 ajfclark wrote: >On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >>and realized you've got a few runs on the board in terms of cliff development > >This thought keeps popping up again and again and I don't understand why >you think people who've never put up routes can never have any idea what >makes a quality route? > >Sure, they might not understand the effort that goes into them. Sure they >might not understand that something that looked f---ing awesome from the >ground turned out to be a grovelly, dirty shitpile, or why the bolts sometimes >don't end up in the places people want them, etc but surely they can still >tell whether or not a route is quality without having done an FA. > >Here's an analogy for you: > >I've never built a road. I've driven on roads in Australia, France, Italy, >China, India, etc. I can tell you that most of the roads we have here are >pretty reasonable and the roads in India are pretty shit (the one from >Agra to Rathambore National Park is a standout in my memory). I can tell >you that putting unmark 45 degree speedbumps on a 100kmph highway is shit, >etc > >Now if I'd built a road, I might have a better understanding of why >some of those roads ended up being shit, but it wouldn't change the fact >that they were shit or that someone who'd never built a road could tell >they were shit. An with that anal-a-G tas-geez uh Gez, just became roadkill 4 not Cing tha flow of tha traffic. |
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10:30:06 PM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: > >Its more about whose opinion I respect, the relationship I have with them >and their reputation and pioneering efforts , than the actual issue of >route quality. If you came up to me and said half my routes at Hillwood >are shit, I would say go f..k yourself; I enjoyed establishing them. > >But if I got to know you a bit and shared a few beers around a campfire, >and learnt about your climbing experiences, and realized you've got a few >runs on the board in terms of cliff development, and that you'd travelled >widely, and that you can put your case in a reasonable manner, then I might >be more inclined to listen to your opinion. > >People with a few new routes to their name do have more credibility in >my book, because they understand the effort that goes into a route. The >people that annoy me are the pricks that come along and whinge and say >`oh its a bit dirty, or the bolts in the wrong place, or the moves don't >flow, or the access is shit', and you know they are locals who've made >hardly any effort to develop the sport, or visitors like One Day Donkey >Boy who just spray criticism. Their opinion lacks credibility in my eyes. > >So the pioneers of Tassie climbing I mentioned earlier, I know most of >them personally or by reputation; and it is their opinion who I would >respect more than others, because of my relationship with them, or their >pioneering efforts which speak for themselves. I understand what you are getting at Gerry. I can understand it being quite frustrating when some newbie, who doesn't understand the intricacies of new routing comes along and criticises your work without understanding the effort that was put in to put up the route. I also understand that you respect the opinions of people you know more than people you don't know. That is just normal. But, to disregard someones opinion simply because they choose not to put up new routes just doesn't seem logical. I choose generally not to put up new routes. However, I have no doubt, that, if you did get to know me a bit better, and had a constructive chat to me about why I have my opinion regarding certain climbs, you would value my opinion. Just because you weren't there having a beer with me when it went down doesn't mean this is my first rodeo. I recon the reason you value the 'pioneers' opinion is not because they have put up so many routes, but because you know them so well. |
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1:21:00 AM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: > >People with a few new routes to their name do have more credibility in >my book, because they understand the effort that goes into a route. The >people that annoy me are the pricks that come along and whinge and say >`oh its a bit dirty, or the bolts in the wrong place, or the moves don't >flow, or the access is shit', and you know they are locals who've made >hardly any effort to develop the sport, or visitors like One Day Donkey >Boy who just spray criticism. Their opinion lacks credibility in my eyes. > I don't know if you picked your example very well there. Donkey boy (I think I'm going to enjoy this new moniker) actually fits your criteria of climbers whose judgement you would listen to quite well - lots of experience, in lots of styles, at lots of places and a few new routes/cliffs developed to boot. |
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8:26:49 AM |
On 23/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >...that's a new line of route name inspiration..Simey's saddle Club? Hung Like Simey? I will be looking forward to these routes. There is nothing like free advertising. |
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