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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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5:52:05 PM |
On 14/09/2016 Stugang wrote: >There are two purposes of the four components of a route (I.e. naming a >route, grading a route, starring a route and describing a route). > >Firstly to provide sufficient information for someone to make an informed >decision on death and to have a good day at the crag. > >Secondly to annoy the hell out of people that take themselves too seriously. > > >Contrary to popular belief the two objectives are not mutually exclusive, >and they can be achieved across all four components on a single route (though >this happens rarely). > >All in all Gerry seems to have done a pretty good job on both objectives. >Kudos. I don't think Tastrad is trolling. Four components? What about the one that renders all four as secondary, ie climbing a route whether written up or not. When I climbed in Tassie recently, I also came across locals suggesting to me to take a couple of stars off G Narkyblitz routes. |
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7:37:57 PM |
On 14/09/2016 rodw wrote: >If you think its shite but 20 others think it >good..whos right? Depends who the other 20 are. If its you and Bundy and a collection of other easily pleased sandstone choss-hounds, I'm right. > >main issue with thecrag is it gives stars to easily...you put climbs in >with no rating, one person climbs it and gives good rating suddenly one >star appears next to the climb. Or, as I discovered, you and a mate play a joke game of giving all your new routes 3-stars, but then the stupid program won't let you take them away (even though you can modify all the other pertinent info!) |
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8:16:43 PM |
On 14/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: > >Depends who the other 20 are. Your sounding like someone else in this thread now ODH |
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10:27:45 PM |
On 14/09/2016 rodw wrote: >Your sounding like someone else in this thread now ODH Fair point. I'm more in favour of an 'opt out' model though. In Gez's world, you have to be one of 'the men of the Ben' for your opinion to be valid. Whereas I, on the other hand, vaguely give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove themselves to be a bit of a muppet by going on a choss-bolting bender. Totally different systems. |
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11:04:01 PM |
On 13/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: ... quite an essay. I seem to remember criticising Gerry's North Tasmania guidebook in a trip report some years ago and promptly getting called a whinging cow. Gerry appears to be a little sensitive to any negative feedback whether couched in ODH terms or not. I'm not sure exactly what this essay was meant to achieve though. So there is a select guide to Tasmania of routes predominantly pioneered by the selecting few of which only locals and first ascentionists are able to assess the route quality? But said first ascentionists are going to be less critical in assessing climbs and no one criticised the Tassie guide due to a charitable desire to see it succeed? I'm also a little curious about the complete lack of women in any of the extensive lists in all of these posts. Do no women climb in Tasmania? Or no women climb with Gerry? I'm reminded of that article about Dude Grades, which basically said grading systems were developed by average sized men because that's who was climbing when the systems were developing, hence they reflected the experience of averaged sized men. Does this rather limited pool of people developing routes and assessing route quality in Tasmania suffer from a similar insularity? It also reminds me of the developers of Frederick's Peak in Townsville. I really like Frederick's Peak. I was super impressed by the effort these guys had gone to in developing it and there was absolutely no questioning their enthusiasm. Plenty of their routes were really good. However, they pretty much only climb at Frederick's Peak. Hence despite being prolific first ascentionists, isn't there a lot of value in breadth of climbing experiences in developing route assessment skills? Or can they come to Tasmania and assess Gerry's routes with his blessing? Anyone who has knocked up a range of climbing experiences and knows Launceston Gorge can make a realistic assessment of the potential quality of these routes. The Gorge is nice to have in your back yard but nothing to worth travelling to. If you find yourself in Launceston wanting to climb, there will be plenty of things worth doing before these new routes. If, on the other hand, you have done a heap of climbing in the Gorge and want something new, they are probably OK. |
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11:08:03 PM |
> >So the locals that Rowan spoke to who said to take two stars off my climbs..if >they are not some of the people I have listed above, then their opinion >has little credibility in my opinion. Which probably leads into another >potential thread..I hate the star rating system..it is too subjective and >results in many excellent climbs of 1 or 2 star rating being neglected, >because everybody only wants to climb 3 star routes The star rating system serves a purpose, but what I think Gerry is wishing for here is something that identifies which of the not classic routes are actually really worth doing when you have climbed all the other routes. Which leads me into my problems with thecrag.com ratings. I have done a lot of obscure routes at Araps and Frog (plus a few new ones) which are actually quite good, but I wouldn't give most of them a star because if you haven't done other more well trafficked classic routes at the crag, you probably should go and do them first. They aren't "average", but if you rate them as "good" to reflect that they were actually worthwhile climbs, the system automatically lobs a star on them. The whole averaging out system fails when a route has very few recorded ascents and you end up with a disproportionate value of stars of new or less trafficed routes. There's also something to be said for knowing a crag or looking over a person's history when assessing their ratings and comments. Someone for instance recently rated Lord Drool at Frog "megaclassic". I can only assume they were super excited about their send because it is a miniature top rope problem in the descent gully. It's like that list of the 3 star hard routes in Oz on .nu that someone linked to a while ago. It didn't differentiate between routes at Kangaroo Pt or the Hole or at actual megacrags. These things don't really stand up on their own but can be useful with judicial use of broader knowledge of the country/state/crag/developer/rabidonlineticker. |
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12:05:21 AM |
If prolific first ascentionists are the requisite new route quality assessors now, I think Hero and Eduardo should go on an assessment tour of Gerry's routes. | |||||
12:15:43 AM |
On 13/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >On 13/09/2016 tristosterone wrote: >>But hey, my opinion doesn't matter because I am a worthless bottom feeder. > >Yeah, that bit bugged me too. There are so many frigging routes to climb >now, what does it matter if most climbers decide not to add more? Trackwork, >replacing old bolts, gardening and brushing existing routes, writing articles, >teaching young climbers......they all contribute to the sport just as much >as the great heroic act of rap bolting. And no one seems to feel the need >to wank on about how awesome they are for doing trackwork. I don't recollect seeing Tracey Skinner's name on any new routes, but I have seen it associated with an awful lot of crag care work. Still, she must be your typical bottom feeder. The other aspect is that if everyone decided that the way of contributing to climbing or the most rewards from climbing was new routing, we would rapidly end up with a massive impact of people trashing the bush looking for and cleaning new routes. And who would be left to appreciate our new routes? Overall, it's a good thing that most climbers don't put up new routes. I think it's a great experience for all climbers to do once or twice in their climbing lifetime, but overall, it's more sustainable that most people contribute to climbing in other ways. And we can reserve "bottom feeder" as a term for people who use the resources developed and maintained by others but never assist in ameliorating the impact of climbing or helping others to become safe and responsible climbers. |
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12:55:48 PM |
On 14/09/2016 Wendy wrote: > The whole averaging out system fails when a route has very few recorded ascents and you end up with a disproportionate value of stars of new or less trafficed routes. >There's also something to be said for knowing a crag or looking over a >person's history when assessing their ratings and comments. Yes, Rodw made a similar point, and I completely agree. But knowing this is subjective, and understanding the number of "reviewers" and even their experience (from online reputation points, climbing history, personal knowledge or friendship etc) all helps me to make an assessment with more input than just the developer or guidebook compilers rating. And when the traffic increases, the average ratings tend to get more accurate (or easy to put in con_text). Not always the case - for example www.goodreads.com star ratings are almost meaningless because people overwhelmingly don't voluntarily review books they don't like - leading to an average 3.8 - 4.2 star rating for every book ever written. |
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2:37:44 PM |
Tristosterone says many of my climbs were a waste of time..maybe for you mate to repeat them, but definitely not for me..I have exhiliarated with every new climb. Thanks for the compliment re the guide. One Day Donkey Boy reckons I slipped up with Blackwood Rocks...its the best sandstone crag in Tassie..but that's not saying much as it is a bit sandy..buts lots of people have appreciated well bolted moderate sport routes, and developing it was two years worth of great fun. Over-rated star quality..take 2 stars off my climbs? A couple of issues here..basically I climb in a crew of 4 people who are new routing every single time we climb..so yes, its a bit of a bubble and we judge the quality of our own climbs and we write them up..so when they haven't had a repeat or only a couple of ascents by our mates, the stars could be out of wack..plus one does tend to be enthusiastic when the latest project goes down as a lot of time and effort has been invested. Nevertheless, our small crew has climbed all over the world and people like Ingvar Lidman know what a quality climb is. Some of the people I mentioned said take some stars off Gerry's routes..good..bring me back to earth a bit..on the other hand, it was funny to see Garry and Nick stripping stars off one another's climbs. Which is why the whole star system is subjective bullshit, and some very good climbs gather cobwebs and grass because people gravitate to the 3 star routes. I deliberately wrote the first edition of Climb Tasmania in 2005 with no star ratings, because as a selected best climbs guide, I thought it was obvious that every climb in there would be a winner..but no..people want stars. There are no women on the list because no women have contributed classic new routes to Tasmania, except maybe Heather Hankock.. But I would listen to someone like Liz Oh if she commented on a climb, because she has runs on the board in terms of impressive leads of climbs of all types from hard sport, multi-pitch, scary trad,and she travels widely to most crags and lets her climbing do the talking. I listen to Jed Parkes, though he hasn't done many new routes I know of..but nevertheless, he is out every weekend travelling to cliffs all over the state and is not afraid to shirk the issue and gets on climbs of all types and grades. So you don't have to be a men of the ben, but nevertheless, for me its the route developers and the people who have heavily invested in a place,that have the most credence when it comes to judging a climb's quality..so if a fly by night like One Day Donkey Boy, or a bottom feeder like tristosterone comes through and says lots of climbs and whole crags are shit..thats their opinion..sorry to waste your time..but I won't listen to your opinion and you can both join in a threesome with the nearest donkey. | |||||
2:50:17 PM |
On 15/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >Tristosterone says many of my climbs were a waste of time..maybe for you >mate to repeat them, but definitely not for me..I have exhiliarated with >every new climb. Thanks for the compliment re the guide. One Day Donkey >Boy reckons I slipped up with Blackwood Rocks...its the best sandstone >crag in Tassie..but that's not saying much as it is a bit sandy..buts lots >of people have appreciated well bolted moderate sport routes, and developing >it was two years worth of great fun. Over-rated star quality..take 2 stars >off my climbs? A couple of issues here..basically I climb in a crew of >4 people who are new routing every single time we climb..so yes, its a >bit of a bubble and we judge the quality of our own climbs and we write >them up..so when they haven't had a repeat or only a couple of ascents >by our mates, the stars could be out of wack..plus one does tend to be >enthusiastic when the latest project goes down as a lot of time and effort >has been invested. Nevertheless, our small crew has climbed all over the >world and people like Ingvar Lidman know what a quality climb is. Some >of the people I mentioned said take some stars off Gerry's routes..good..bring >me back to earth a bit..on the other hand, it was funny to see Garry and >Nick stripping stars off one another's climbs. Which is why the whole star >system is subjective bullshit, and some very good climbs gather cobwebs >and grass because people gravitate to the 3 star routes. I deliberately >wrote the first edition of Climb Tasmania in 2005 with no star ratings, >because as a selected best climbs guide, I thought it was obvious that >every climb in there would be a winner..but no..people want stars. There >are no women on the list because no women have contributed classic new >routes to Tasmania, except maybe Heather Hankock.. But I would listen to >someone like Liz Oh if she commented on a climb, because she has runs on >the board in terms of impressive leads of climbs of all types from hard >sport, multi-pitch, scary trad,and she travels widely to most crags and >lets her climbing do the talking. I listen to Jed Parkes, though he hasn't >done many new routes I know of..but nevertheless, he is out every weekend >travelling to cliffs all over the state and is not afraid to shirk the >issue and gets on climbs of all types and grades. So you don't have to >be a men of the ben, but nevertheless, for me its the route developers >and the people who have heavily invested in a place,that have the most >credence when it comes to judging a climb's quality..so if a fly by night >like One Day Donkey Boy, or a bottom feeder like tristosterone comes through >and says lots of climbs and whole crags are shit..thats their opinion..sorry >to waste your time..but I won't listen to your opinion and you can both >join in a threesome with the nearest donkey. Sure doesn't want to wear that enter key out, does he? ;-) |
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3:02:51 PM |
On 15/09/2016 ajfclark wrote: >On 15/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >>Tristosterone says many of my climbs were a waste of time..maybe for >you....to waste your time..but I won't listen to your opinion and you can both >>join in a threesome with the nearest donkey. > >Sure doesn't want to wear that enter key out, does he? ;-) Too busy digging holes, :) |
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3:21:35 PM |
So Wendy..a good thing that most people don't put up new routes? Where would the existing climbs have come from? Check out this wonderful video from dave macleod..sums it up perfectly for me. http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/dave-macleod-the-unknown |
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3:41:29 PM |
On 15/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >So Wendy..a good thing that most people don't put up new routes? Where would the existing climbs have come from? Umm... exactly where they come from now, the people that do? Wendy didn't say no one put up new routes but that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing that not everyone goes out bush bashing looking for new routes as the environmental impact is less when less people do it. >Check out this wonderful video from dave macleod..sums it up perfectly for me. http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/dave-macleod-the-unknown I think there's some beautiful irony in Dave's voice over talking about the glory of the unknown as he super slow-mos to the cleaned, brushed and ticked hold. |
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4:06:52 PM |
On 15/09/2016 Tastrad wrote: >Check out this wonderful video >from dave macleod..sums it up perfectly for me. Haha, world class climber putting up a spectacular hard route, on gear, on immaculate looking rock, and having a bit of a wank about it I bet those same thoughts were rattling around your brain as you brushed moss off 12m non-lines at Hillwood and Blackwood......but the result isn't exactly equivalent, is it? |
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4:14:34 PM |
Actually they were, especially that classic I did last weekend called Damo Does Donkeys. | |||||
4:20:52 PM |
Nice one. I do feel kinda obliged to go and do those routes next time I'm in Tas. | |||||
4:57:45 PM |
On 15/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >Nice one. I do feel kinda obliged to go and do those routes next time I'm >in Tas. Don't 4get 2 take 2 starz off them when U rate them. Bin giving the hole Taswgian scene all of 2 secs thought an I reckon their 1st ascent club respectin each othas starry opinion is biased bcos 2 headded individuls get 2 voice-ova votes insted of tha 1 per individul like on the big island. Their ego knowz no end. Didja kno that they even claim settin up Melb as their own? The hide of em i say! Gez, ifU want real cred, get Ur carcass ova 2 tha big island an compete with tha like of nm, an Jo Grolling 4 real fame re 1st ascents. Ps i thought of includin my best fiend stugang in that short list, but itz been 2 long sinc he did anything worthwhile so he got culled. My otha fiend ed, altho he keeps tryin, got culled 2, bcos he wouldnt loan my 3rd best fiend simes his dildo. Insted he sed simes can get a goat at nex goatfest for any flicks of odius's donkey ascents. He also sed velcro gloves R optional. |
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5:28:07 PM |
On 15/09/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >Nice one. I do feel kinda obliged to go and do those routes next time I'm >in Tas. You will likely regret it and then have to roast Tastard even harder. Still, if you went there you could find and climb an even chossier new route and call it 'Despatched by a Donkey'. |
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5:07:38 AM |
Gerry - I am glad you've enjoyed putting up all the routes you have. I was just trying to point out that, from my perspective, your reasoning when it comes to the quality of your routes is flawed. And honestly, anyone who puts up ~1000 routes is probably going to put a fair number of rubbish ones, so don't be offended. Just like I won't be offended about you not giving a poo about my opinion. Or your offer for me to go have sex with a donkey. And I am not a total bottom feeder. I have put up 2 boulder problems. Well, I cleaned them at least - I was too weak to do them. They were both super classic though. Honestly. You should go do them. I promise you won't be disappointed. P.S. You would definitely be disappointed. |
| There are 67 messages in this topic. |
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