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Sonnie Trotter Goes Down on Tasmania

One Day Hero

23-Feb-2016
5:21:27 PM

On 23/02/2016 Karl Bromelow wrote:
>There's no rock worthy of anything more than crushing for my back yard
>on this hot little Victorian peninsula of mine.

Good answer.

As a strong supporter of weirdness and diversity in climbing, I love the E grading system. It's utterly bizarre, and adds character to the world of climbing.
However, if one were merely seeking to convey information efficiently, a separate value for each independent variable is pretty difficult to argue against.


Macciza

23-Feb-2016
6:30:56 PM

Now back to the mainstream of this discussion . . (meant to post it earlier)

Before we leave E grades perhaps a little schooling is in order . .
There is no such thing as an E2 or E9 or whatever, as thats only half the grade - what about the 'technical' part, its equally if not more important. Its like calling Shai Hulud XXX route - it makes no sense with out the technical component ~23. Or maybe E5/6A but not E5/6B . . .

Anyway, the way I read Sonnies FB post was that he claimed a pinkpoint ascent of the route and confessed his stylistic shortcomings. How many sport climbers claim redpoints with the gear on?? And how many sport routes get done after stick clipping the first ring or even the second? Even on the FFA??

Yes 'style' matters but it does not really change the fact that you climbed something without falling - i.e. if you don't fall you have effectively soloed the route with the added hassle of rope and gear which was not physically used, though mentally it probably helped. Other peoples ascents can be viewed as a benchmark to improve upon. First ascents often don't really have that luxury but once something has a grade one can decide to try it as an onsight if they feel up to it. Or do whatever it takes to do it in better form. Yes going ground up onsight is the best form (hopefully in one go before some f#cker retrobolts your line) , but generally only done on trad or fairly easy non dangerous sport.

And as to top-roping/headpointing dangerous routes, the danger does not suddenly disappear just because you have rehearsed it a few times; and its really not that different to sport climbers aiding up to put draws on so they can go for the redpoint onsight or whatever they want to call it these days....

simey

23-Feb-2016
7:05:42 PM

On 23/02/2016 Macciza wrote:

>And as to top-roping/headpointing dangerous routes, the danger does not
>suddenly disappear just because you have rehearsed it a few times;

Well the danger is certainly lessened when you know exactly what moves are coming up. If the danger wasn't lessened, then people would attempt those same routes ground up.

Glad to see you managed to give Shai Hulud a mention. It's been a while.

Andy P

23-Feb-2016
8:15:26 PM

Now, now, settle down peeps, I'm sure Mr Gribble will be along shortly to put us all to rights on the vaguer aspects of the British grading system....
However, if you're doing a bold new route having brushed it, check it out dead well and either add (or take) 3 E's, get next months' front mag cover and sponsorship goes up so more free kit and trips away. Worked for ,, err ,,, a 'mate' of mine for donkey's.
Grib, over to you.
I'll go away again...

Karl Bromelow

23-Feb-2016
8:39:13 PM

No mention of c--khead Crack but here's an interview. Not terribly interesting or revealing, here you go: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70280


Macciza

24-Feb-2016
10:47:05 AM

Simey, I'm talking about the objective dangers of big falls, bad gear or bad landings not the subjective fear and anxiety dangers. The objective danger never really changes.
Yes rehearsal makes the climbing easier, much like sport climbers aiding bolt to bolt to put the draws on then falling up the route, working out the crux on the dogging bolt before going for the eventual 'redpoint flash' or whatever they call it these days . . . .
And just like spurt climbers who still manage to fall despite 'having it wired' when going for the send, the same thing can happen on dangerous routes but with greater consequence. Sometimes the routes are tried ground up onsight, mostly it depends on the grade and the climber - if you are pretty sure that you stand a damn good chance of falling off with catastrophic results then rehearsal becomes a pretty good option; if you are confident that you can do it or at least back off and downclimb then you can go for it.

Well of course you know if we are talking dangerous routes I was going to bring it up. It is still awaiting a third ascent, And I recall you expressed some interest so I like to remind you every now and again...


ajfclark

24-Feb-2016
11:22:54 AM

On 24/02/2016 Macciza wrote:
>And just like spurt climbers who still manage to fall despite 'having it wired' when going for the send, the same thing can happen on dangerous routes but with greater consequence.

eg. This or this


Macciza

24-Feb-2016
1:14:42 PM

Yeah more or less ....

Tastrad

25-Feb-2016
9:57:46 AM

Like what Dave said that the FFA is the starting point, and not some ethical highpoint that CJ suggests.

If ethical highpoints were the rule, then Reinhold Messner is the only person to ever truly climb Mt Everest..solo without oxygen..by fair means. In rockclimbing the FFA goes to the first person to lead the route from bottom to top without falling or weighting gear, regardless of the style..then subsequent repeats can improve on the style, but they can't claim a FFA..

One thing that attracted me to climbing in the first place was there was something anarchistic about it..no rules..climb in whatever style you want...the only rule really is that to claim a first free ascent, you've got to lead the route without falling or resting on gear. The games climbers play..this debate has revealed all the bullshit rules climbers have invented, when there is only one rule..the FFA..because without a FFA, the route wouldn't exist (except as an aid route maybe).

The ethical quagmire revolves around style..the first ascensionist should always try to do it in the best style possible, but sometimes circumstances, ability, head space, rock quality etc combine to erode the style..but as long as the one rule is adhered to..no falls, no weighting gear..then the FFA can be claimed. Seems weird that trad and sport have different rules..in a FA of a sport route there's often lots of top rope rehearsal, the draws can be on, high first bolts stick clipped, long draws pre-placed on reachy bolts..there's not much room for improvement in style here..but on trad the ethics police want absolute purity..but its all climbing, so the same rule applies..no falls or weighting gear..so whats good enough for a sport route should be good enough for trad to claim the first ascent..after that, the style can be improved.

A first ascent of trad route is still valid with top-rope rehearsal, pre-placed gear either dogged in or on rappel, first nut placed with a stick, pitons, a bolt or two (how silly to have a double standard on a mixed gear route..I can hang the draws off the bolts, but I have to place the trad gear on lead). Even with this shit style, the first ascent counts as long as they free climbed it..the style can always be improved.

I have often gone back to trad routes I did the FA of in less than impeccable style, and tried to improve it. As long as first ascensionists are honest about their style in reporting their ascents, then repeaters are forewarned..if a bold route was rehearsed on top-rope, had some pre-placed gear etc, then unless you are as good as Sonnie Trotter, to avoid serious injury you might be advised to do the same.
Congratulations to Sonnie on the FFA of C..head Crack.

johny

25-Feb-2016
12:17:17 PM

Well Gerry thanks for weighing in. Those Boags you northern boys drink like water may have helped you ballast your belaying abilities however they in no way bulk up your ffa argument. Your argument being (as far as I can tell through all the mumbling into your beard) is that as long as you get to the top in any fashion free its a ffa. The only reasoning you give for this other than "climbing is anarchy dont tell me what to do" is that sport climbing and trad climbing are the same except you have the tedious requirement of rapping into a trad route to preplace the gear. Well that is a patently ridiculous argument. I would simply laugh at you if you weren't one of the more prolific new routers in Tassie.

Of course climbing is anarchy... just as long as everyone does what you want, right Gerry? Absolutely no bolts on ben lomond, right? Are you kidding me?!?!? Yeah anarchy. Maybe Ill take your advice and bolt whatever I want.

Yes climbing is anarchy, do whatever you like without altering the rock. But the lame justification "as long as you are honest with the style" is obviously a recognition that you are ashamed of the style. So why bother putting up your hand and bragging about it? Just do it right in the first place. Plus the honesty seams to be conveniently forgotten. The recent 22 with a piece of gear placed on abseil never got mentioned. This is annoying because it is like the guy who supposedly runs marathons in under 3 hours without training, is actually a black belt in jijutso but sworn to never practice outside the dojo or onsights 34 when no ones looking, or puts up SUPER SCARY BOLD routes in the wilderness. It becomes really boring to hear about all these brave routes no one actually leads.

Another reason is safety. These routes are all top-roped to death and yet still pre-placed and the so-called honesty of the shit style is forgotten to be mentioned. So people rock up to a "bold" route and find out that it is not just bold, it is an unprotectable death route. And in this case you would probably just laugh and say "You got Narcoblitzed!". Very annoying, potentially dangerous and no respect for future onsights. These are of course just 2 more reasons on top of the many others I gave.

Look do whatever you want in the shit style you want. You are right. Climbing is anarchy. There are no rules. I base all of my actions on the respect of places, the history and people. If you want to continue to be a laughing stock go ahead. I will act accordingly.


shortman

25-Feb-2016
12:27:42 PM

On 25/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>One thing that attracted me to climbing in
>the first place was there was something anarchistic about it..(choppy chop)...because
>without a FFA, the route wouldn't exist (except as an aid route maybe).

What a load of crap.

All routes existed long before they were climbed...what is wrong with you people and your out of proportion ego's??

One Day Hero

25-Feb-2016
12:57:45 PM

On 25/02/2016 shortman wrote:

>All routes existed long before they were climbed...

Not really. Your idea of unclimbed rock might be vaguely accurate for the Wimmera. When applied to most other areas, "childlike innocence" is the most polite way to describe your worldview.

Tastrad

25-Feb-2016
1:07:06 PM

Ever done a new route shortman or are you just a critical bottom feeder. Here's a quote from Bob McMahon's memoirs which is a way more eloquent response than anything I could come up with.

A climb is something which has taken place on a piece of rock and changed utterly, and forever, the nature of the rock. After a climb has been put up, the rock is a different thing. There may be people, purists they would view themselves, who see the virgin rock as becoming a lesser thing for having been climbed on. With this sense of loss uppermost in mind, they hold the belief that the climbs once done, should at the very least, not be publicized. The reasons are many and most of us have a fair degree of sympathy with them. Regardless of all the reasons, my mind switches to an inescapable respect for the facts of the matter, an overwhelming desire to do justice to the creation, (the climb – above all, the climb) and the creator, the person whose act changed the rock irrevocably.

How much we avert our attention from the polluted river and see only the cliffs is brought home when travelling farther up the river past Duck Reach, and the absolute delight one feels as all the elements coincide of clean river, clean rock, clean air and golden sunlight – a coincidence missing from the lower reaches, and we are so impoverished because of it.

The collection of facts is a relatively easy pursuit, especially when the facts are at such close hand, and their arrangement a satisfying thing and to me a significant thing. When all the climbs are listed, described and illustrated, I get a picture of my years of activity that in no other fashion would I get. I see before me the enormous amount of time I have spent rambling this river bed and these river banks. I can see before me the pointers to my intimate knowledge and I know that the time it took is time well and truly filled. This guide should be viewed as the product of a satisfied person who filled his days pursuing that most beautifully useless of all human activities; climbing. (Bob McMahon 1982)


shortman

25-Feb-2016
1:34:06 PM

On 25/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 25/02/2016 shortman wrote:
>
>>All routes existed long before they were climbed...
>
>Not really.

Leavin ya self open here mate.

>Your idea of unclimbed rock might be vaguely accurate for
>the Wimmera.

And again, at least have some substance, gettin old will do it to ya. Some of us age like wine though...

>When applied to most other areas, "childlike innocence" is
>the most polite way to describe your worldview.

This just makes me wanna cuddle ya.

>All routes existed long before they were climbed...what is wrong with you people and your out of proportion ego's??

I rest my case Damo, :)


shortman

25-Feb-2016
1:41:04 PM

On 25/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>Ever done a new route shortman or are you just a critical bottom feeder.

I'm assuming the above was a question? Yes and yes.

The Bob McMahon quote is very poetic and on the verge of being profound, but sorry, yawn.

And quoting someone else is not always the best way to get ones point across.

johny

25-Feb-2016
1:43:29 PM

Thanks for the quote Gerry. It is some of his best writing. However, I am not arguing against writing up a route. I don't mind embellishment and story telling at all. I just would like the ascent described much closer to a documentation as opposed to a work of fiction.


ambyeok

25-Feb-2016
1:51:11 PM

Hey Tastard, what has whether shorty ever done a new route got to do with it? Does doing a new route somehow magically improve a persons capacity for critical thinking?

ps. re. Bob quote, man that is some nice words, I wish they still made pills with real MDMA back like they did in the 80's


shortman

25-Feb-2016
2:17:01 PM

On 25/02/2016 ambyeok wrote:
>Hey Tastard, what has whether shorty ever done a new route got to do with
>it? Does doing a new route somehow magically improve a persons capacity
>for critical thinking?

Let us be Garth and Wayne together....
>
>ps. re. Bob quote, man that is some nice words, I wish they still made
>pills with real MDMA back like they did in the 80's

Seek and you will find, :)

One Day Hero

25-Feb-2016
2:27:19 PM

On 25/02/2016 ambyeok wrote:
>Hey Tastard, what has whether shorty ever done a new route got to do with
>it? Does doing a new route somehow magically improve a persons capacity
>for critical thinking?

No, it improves a persons capacity for critical thinking via the non-magical but well proven method of education and firsthand knowledge in the field.
Without some experience putting up new routes, your opinion is worth as much as; a catholic priest lecturing on sex, a Liberal party multi-millionaire from the north shore explaining how they understand working class issues, or a sydney sport climber (who has never placed a wire on lead) telling you that the new sport routes at Point Perp are a good addition to the cliff.


shortman

25-Feb-2016
2:49:03 PM

On 25/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>No, it improves a persons capacity for critical thinking via the non-magical
>but well proven method of education and firsthand knowledge in the field.
>Without some experience putting up new routes, your opinion is worth as
>much as; a catholic priest lecturing on sex, a Liberal party multi-millionaire
>from the north shore explaining how they understand working class issues,
>or a sydney sport climber (who has never placed a wire on lead) telling
>you that the new sport routes at Point Perp are a good addition to the
>cliff.

In which case then I am completely qualified to comment on people with out of proportion ego's, :)

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