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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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6:06:12 PM |
>It's isn't the only time we climbed together either. I dragged you out >to Taipan when you were being all mopey and depressed cause Punks was slapping >you around. You ticked Sidewinder, it was really good day. Oh yeah! I forgot Taipan. Yeah that was a fun day out! I took that whip on sidewinder. I think I ended up bellow you on belay? Punishing that was... Sorry about the slaggin! All taken in good humor I hope. But I am a bit miffed that Anna laughed harder at your Punks in the Gym dig than she did at my 15 year old girl comments. Although, she is German and her sense of humor is genetically inferior. Back to the point. ""So, a first ascent is bound by incredibly strict rules, then everyone else can roll up afterwards and claim the tick in whatever abominable style they see fit?"" It is not incredibly strict. I think that the guidelines I put forward are totally within reason. I think first ascents are necessarily a step above. Climbing is a constant progression. People developing are in that progression and need to recognize it. First it was summit by any means, then alpine style then aid bolted rock routes, then aid piton rock routes, then hammer-less, then free(earlier in some areas), etc. Do I really need to go through this (surely not with you I hope)? Back in the day Dewhirst aided routes that 6 months later Barber freed. Instantly Aid Climbing was thrown out the window in Australia. The whole thing evolved until this exact moment. I love climbing for that! There are no rules for sure. These is just my thoughts and suggestions. |
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6:44:56 PM |
All good mate, if I didn't like you I wouldn't even bother giving you shit. Maybe we can have a confession session about poor f.a. style? I found this cool crack in an obscure location, the year before last. It's only 23ish, but the crux is the first 4m and you start off a sharp boulder. It's totally protectable the whole way, but you'd have to place 3 bits of gear mid-crux to make sure you don't deck.......Like you, I'm not a huge fan of routes where the crux is putting in the gear, so I just stick clipped the highest wire in and climbed it Trotter style. Am I going to go to hell? |
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11:31:11 PM |
On 19/02/2016 johny wrote: >Here we go again with your insane (inane?) analogies. Im talking about >ffa. Repeat anything you want in whatever style you want. India was probably >lead with fixed gear like many of the routes back then done in what most >people today would reckon dodgy style. This is exactly what Im suggesting >we move away from by having a clear standard of establishing first ascents. > Maybe now...not always the case....most of the harder "trad" routes in vic still havent been led ground up placing gear on lead. Mr Natural, Mother of God, even Old Masters. these are all gagging for a better ascent but I think claiming the FFA on any of these would be a bit rich. For me the first person who gets up an old aid route without weighing any of the gear has done the FFA and though the person who later does it placing all the gear on lead has done an infinitely better ascent there is no actual term for this (FFAPTGOL?) I think the FFA is a good starting point rather than an ethical highpoint. generally repeat ascentionists should try to match or better the style of the first ascent. What is the point of the first ascentionist going to extreme lengths to do the line in impeccable style if all the repeaters just dilute this with shenanigans (not that this was the case with Ethiopia...your repeat sounds saintly in comparison to the FA). The motivation for doing a FA in the best possible style would be to stop anyone gazumping the ascent down the track....Like doing the classic boulder problem from the shitty shit start just so that no one tries to tack it on at a later point. I think its a period to do with the ethic of the time when I was doing stuff araps was transitioning from a fixed wire to. If I had got up Agent of Cool back when I was trying it, there almost certainly would have been at least some gear in it and I would have claimed it as an FFA and still slept soundly (I think there was still of my gear in it 10 years later that Lee must have had to taken out so he could climb it properly). I don't have and issue with leaving gear in (I don't dispute this could add grades to the difficulty but the idea of rapping down something to clean the gear out just so you could immediately put it back in seemed anal to the point of insanity and I never did it). I do have an issue of leaving something pre-clipped to avoid a run-out that to me inherently changes the nature of the climb. If the runnout start was the thing that was the thing that stopped the locals from doing the line in tas then top roping though it doesn't seem legit (though personally I would have given it to him if the gear were in and he'd clipped it on the way past). |
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12:42:02 AM |
Well those trad routes may have seen an ascent placing gear. I heard that sonny had done both natural and god placing gear. I climbed mother of god with preplaced and was happy enough with it. mr natural in my opinion is a farce.. I said it straight up to zach that I would be surprised if they lead great shark hunt placing gear and against their stubborn principles they still left the gear in. I reckon Malcolm's ascent is still the best and I have mad respect. so its kind of funny that in practice there are still these insane climbs like shark hunt that have not had a lead in the style like I am proposing. But I have to challenge the whole idea it is "anal to the point of insanity" to work a trad route with the notion of placing the gear as a negative thing. Is it anal OCD to climb Punks 40 times to get Punks Addiction? If so I welcome anal obsession. It is a ying that inspires other people to yang on to. I would say historically Australians have mega bad ass role models for trad climbing. For tights at the very least.Dave you are of course still smashing it as are the usual motley stalwarts in nati and blackheath. Hey I ask for no justifications just a thoughtfulness for the present. And a nice G & T on occasion. |
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7:47:48 AM |
On 19/02/2016 Dave J wrote: >...does it placing all the gear on lead has done an infinitely better ascent there is no actual term for this I thought that was the distinction between redpoint and pink point? Pink the gear is in, red it isn't? |
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12:19:20 PM |
On 20/02/2016 johny wrote: >But I have to challenge the whole idea it is "anal to the point of insanity" >to work a trad route with the notion of placing the gear as a negative >thing. I think you're missing Dave's point. From a purely logistical perspective, how do you make repeated redpoint attempts at a route like Mother of God and get the gear out between shots? There is a lot of extra physical work involved, it's a f--- around, and I agree that it rapidly becomes anal and stupid. |
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11:26:41 PM |
On 20/02/2016 johny wrote: >Well those trad routes may have seen an ascent placing gear. I heard that >sonny had done both natural and god placing gear. I climbed mother of god >with preplaced and was happy enough with it. Likewise. This is a classic example of getting the gear back out between shots being more work than putting it back in again it on lead the next shot. > mr natural in my opinion is a farce.. Worthless? or just contrived on the gear front? I don't think it was worth bolting and frankly the gear situation i the only thing that makes it memorable. For the record stuart was tricked into doing this on gear by Gordy. when told by stu that he'd found a new line he was going to bolt...he managed to pullout of his arse a story about Hoss trying it on natural gear, convincingly enough that stu. If Hoss came along and retrobolted the line at this point, I would be content enough with that story arc for that route but otherwise I think its a good addition to the history arapiles. I imagine it would still be a good challenge from a ground up perspective. > I reckon Malcolm's ascent is still the best >and I have mad respect. > Malcolm always said he thought that as a bottom line, the gear should be put in on lead from the ground on the day the route gets done(and pulling the rope between shots). That always seemed like a pretty decent real-world standard. not placing it once and then leaving it till the route is done and not spending most of your time and energy rapping down to strip the route between attempts. > >But I have to challenge the whole idea it is "anal to the point of insanity" >to work a trad route with the notion of placing the gear as a negative >thing. Is it anal OCD to climb Punks 40 times to get Punks Addiction? If >so I welcome anal obsession. A bit cheeky making jokes like this at Zac's expense while he's not here to defend himself... |
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11:47:04 AM |
>I think you're missing Dave's point. From a purely logistical perspective, >how do you make repeated redpoint attempts at a route like Mother of God >and get the gear out between shots? There is a lot of extra physical work >involved, it's a f--- around, and I agree that it rapidly becomes anal >and stupid. I think i get his point. well if you top rope a sport climb free it is a lot of extra physical work to go back and lead it but most people do. Some people are happy with the TR send of a sport climb and happy with a pre-placed send of gear route. My simple point is that neither can count as claiming the FFA. Just because it is "a lot of extra physical work" is a pretty lame excuse to put it mildly. |
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3:33:54 PM |
Is the climb still there? Or did sonny take it back to Canada? Are you sad? I always feel happy after a song so I hope this cheers you up: Three cheers for Jonny Three cheers for Jonny He's better than sonny He did India from a sit start - did you? Thought not. He's better than you He's better than me He can even make a joke about oral sex on the Internet - wow. So three cheers for Jonny Three cheers for Jonny He's better than sonny Hip hip hooray Calloo callay Have a nice day xxxooo |
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4:02:26 PM |
>Likewise. This is a classic example of getting the gear back out between shots being more work >than putting it back in again it on lead the next shot. When you explain redpointing to people who dont climb they think it is wank. In fact non-climbers probably think all rock climbing is wank. I think by "wank" you mean it is "too much of a pain in the ass" which ultimately I would say just means too lazy. So some routes are easy to clean and try again placing gear and some are hard. To just arbitrarily say its "too wanky" for some and not others creates a bunch of problems. If you fall off Mr Natural placing gear (and dont break your legs) you can run to the top and rap clean the one or two pieces from a bolted anchor in about 5 minutes. This is not done because it is too much of pain in the ass. Its because people are too scared to lead it placing gear. In this case it is pretty obvious that its not wanky to place the gear, its wanky to preplace. If you "lead" this climb with massive slings and preplaced gear -like almost all ascents have been done- you may as well toprope it. thats why I call it a farce... Watching someone "lead" a trad route who never climbs above preplaced gear is a farce. A lead placing gear on mr. natural is a whole other planet. This is very much the case with the route sonnie climbed in Tas- c--khead Crack. Mr Natural BTW is a fun climb and I like that it is out there as a challenge. I would not complain about one bolt at the start, but it is a good little test piece as it is. The story is absolutely hilarious. Thing is that Hoss could have lead it placing gear if he wanted to. He may have anyway. I dont want to take away from that history and Im not trying to slagg off anyone -well besides sonnie a bit :) , Im just suggesting that nowadays routes get put up with some consistency. Mother of god is easy to place but hard to strip in between... I would say its not wanky to pull the gear out but lazy. However, I can see why you didn't bother back then. I didn't place the gear on that route mainly because it was a pain but also because another climber asked me to leave it in. But if I was climbing that today as a FFA I would have placed the gear. Compared to other gear routes it is not that bad to strip between shots. Surely you would go back and lead a sport climb you accidentally freed on top rope? I know alot of climbers who have done this. Very small difference in wank factor in my opinion. I think trad climbs require that extra bit of effort. Hey that wasnt a dig at Zach. I totally respect him and Logan's send. But the effort required cleaning that route between lead shots is maybe 3 times harder to do than Mother of God. I told them I would be surprised if they led it placing gear because I knew what a pain in the ass it is not because I doubt they were unable to do it. Malcolm was stripping the route at the end of every day working it and then going for the send placing gear on the next day which is better style than anyone else has done. |
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4:51:10 PM |
I was sort of thinking this tune and theme.... https://youtu.be/l_kD5wF7NZA |
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10:02:17 PM |
On 21/02/2016 johny wrote: >Surely you would go back and lead a sport climb you accidentally freed >on top rope? Nope, I never went back to Punks in the Gunks after accidentally flashing it on half-toprope. Mainly because I didn't think the route was that good and I couldn't be fuched. A half-arsed half-toprope is a suitable style for that mediocre thing. I understand how all the extra work of stripping things between shots to attain purity can seem worthwhile and super important when you're unemployed. I used to do all sorts of frivolous, lavish things with my time before I got a job. |
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10:07:23 PM |
On 19/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >All good mate, if I didn't like you I wouldn't even bother giving you shit. > >Maybe we can have a confession session about poor f.a. style? > >I found this cool crack in an obscure location, the year before last. >It's only 23ish, but the crux is the first 4m and you start off a sharp >boulder. It's totally protectable the whole way, but you'd have to place >3 bits of gear mid-crux to make sure you don't deck.......Like you, I'm >not a huge fan of routes where the crux is putting in the gear, so I just >stick clipped the highest wire in and climbed it Trotter style. Am I going >to go to hell? So are you trying to contrive an imaginary route into a logical paradox? If it is "totally protecable" then... what is the problem? Did you forget to insert the corollary that this imaginary route is also nearly impossible to lead while placing the gear? If you are going to continue with these types of analogies please try to make them relevant. Its hard enough to argue with you much more arguing for you as well. :) To take a really existing example similar to your imaginary route, Yesterday has a stick placed wire. But you dont have to preplace that wire on Yesterday anyway and many people have done it without. I always have mainly because its fun to try and cowboy it in, but its not a really bad fall like c--khead crack or mr natural. The best aid climber in the world is not going to stick place the gear on c--khead or mr natural. |
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10:57:59 PM |
No no, it's a real route, the name is Hearts and Bones at a crag called Billy Billy, look it up on The Crag if you like. Pretty much the same situation as Yesterday, but a worse landing. The difference is that you could fart arse around mid-crux with your feet 1m off the starting boulder to fiddle rp's in, but the thing climbs way better if you just drop a nut in above the fiddley bit using a short stick. I'm not trying to attach this to the arguement, just letting you know that I establish routes in questionable style all the time, but nobody cares because they aren't hard enough for the big boys to get into c--k-measuring contest over. Anyway, it's a great route, never had a ocd style-fetishist ascent, you should come up and show us how it's done properly. |
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11:18:31 PM |
On 21/02/2016 johny wrote: >Its hard enough to >argue with you much more arguing for you as well. :) Try living with me Johnny (love and kisses to all you chockstone biatches from Sarah xoxoxo) |
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11:35:35 PM |
CJ, I'm surprised at all your focus with regard placing gear on the lead, but you don't seem to give two hoots about whether the first ascentionist resorted to prior abseil inspection or top-roping. I would give more credit to a ground-up yo-yoing approach than I would do to a redpoint ascent after heavy rehearsal, particularly on bold routes. I also think that removing gear after every attempt just isn't practical on a lot of routes. As Dave Jones mentioned... Malcolm's idea of placing gear on lead from the ground on the day of the send (without dogging it in) is a good practical approach. If you fall, lower off, pull your ropes and try again. And if you are going ground-up and have expended a lot of energy leading some terrifying run-out before falling off on safer climbing up higher, then treat yourself to the top-rope to your high point on your next effort. Yo-yoing in this fashion still beats the crap out of inspecting it on abseil or rehearsing the shit out of it on top-rope beforehand. |
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10:15:45 AM |
On 21/02/2016 simey wrote: >CJ, I'm surprised at all your focus with regard placing gear on the lead, >but you don't seem to give two hoots about whether the first ascentionist >resorted to prior abseil inspection or top-roping. > >I would give more credit to a ground-up yo-yoing approach than I would >do to a redpoint ascent after heavy rehearsal, particularly on bold routes. > >I also think that removing gear after every attempt just isn't practical >on a lot of routes. As Dave Jones mentioned... Malcolm's idea of placing >gear on lead from the ground on the day of the send (without dogging it >in) is a good practical approach. If you fall, lower off, pull your ropes >and try again. > >And if you are going ground-up and have expended a lot of energy leading >some terrifying run-out before falling off on safer climbing up higher, >then treat yourself to the top-rope to your high point on your next effort. >Yo-yoing in this fashion still beats the crap out of inspecting it on abseil >or rehearsing the shit out of it on top-rope beforehand. > Yes, gone are the days (it would seem), of such 1st-ascents as Delirium Tremens, Lois Lane, Tjuringa, Ride Like The Wind, and Breezin, at just one locality amongst many others... ... And also gone are the days (it would seem), when such things as this thread discusses, were done in open media like (of those times) magazines. |
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10:56:18 AM |
Hey Simey! If a yo-yo is done properly it is probably the best way to climb anything including new routes. Respect to Sonnie if he yo-yod c--khead crack but Im pretty sure he didnt. I know he toproped the Ewbank route which is waaay safer. I agree with everything you have said about yoyos and ground up. It seems perfect common sense. Unfortunately, I think as soon as yoyo style was invented it was abused by dogging in gear, toproping, etc. I mean someone has taken Malcolm's idea of leaving the gear in to justify solo aiding in 40 odd pieces of gear in a 35 metre pitch then redpointing it with what amounts to a super contrived toprope. If everyone had Malcom's ethic of climbing, new routing would work. But no one seems to have his ethic! Instead of his straight-forward comprimise between OCD style gear re-placement and keeping the adventure and challenge of the lead, you have bizarre aid ascents in order to claim to have “technically” lead a route placing gear and people begging for preplaced runners on the send even after working it on top-rope. These stories are kind of funny but they amount to fairly dismal efforts at rock climbing. These are real examples of what happens if there is any grey area. This is why I am all for placing the gear on lead so there is a standard that does not allow for all of these weird shenanigans that are happening not just hypotheticals. The ground up yo-yo style is almost unheard of now where the top-rope inspection is the norm. I have a lot of respect for doing a yo-yo style ground up especially on multipitch routes where it may be practically impossible to rap clean the gear. But I also respect that many routes require a ton of cleaning or a bolt or two anyway. The best thing about topdown is that you can pave the way for a proper onsight by making sure the rock is sound and the gear is good and the route is actually climbable. So for better or worse topdown new routing is the norm in Australia. Since this is the case, placing the gear on the ascent should be the norm as well. I would love to be drowned out by all of the people doing yoyo style first ascents. I have been lucky enough to have done a few. I don't know of many people doing them in Tassie or anywhere else. And Rod- well maybe. Here we are! Armchair ethics in full effect! This is what rainy rest days are for. |
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11:06:22 AM |
On 22/02/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >Yes, gone are the days (it would seem), of such 1st-ascents as Delirium >Tremens, Lois Lane, Tjuringa, Ride Like The Wind, and Breezin, at just >one locality amongst many others... Good point M9, although I am sure stylish ascents of bold routes still occasionally take place, but they don't always receive the merit they deserve. In many instances it would be good if first ascent details also included the style routes were established (providing there is something worth noting). If Sonny has described the way he climbed the route then I don't see a problem. |
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11:37:16 AM |
I'm glad to hear CJ that you see the merit in yo-yoing, even though I realise it can easily slide into the murky grey area. I reckon Goshen summed things up pretty well... On 15/02/2016 Goshen wrote: >The purest style of roped climbing is onsight trad, placing gear, without >pre-inspection. Anything after this is a grey area; and can always be >done in a better style, although hard trad is almost never done in this >pure style anyway. I love how climbing in the UK uses E grades which are meant to indicate the seriousness of going ground-up on a route, yet most ascents of hard, bold routes over there are heavily rehearsed and top-roped beforehand. It seems weird to be able to claim an ascent of say an E9 even though you didn't climb it in the required manner. Personally I've got no issue with top-rope ascents. Climbing on pre-placed gear with long slings on pieces to minimise run-out sections (Wendy - I'm talking to you!) is so contrived. Why bother doing that if you have already successfully top-roped it? |
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