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Sonnie Trotter Goes Down on Tasmania

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
9:25:15 AM

On 18/02/2016 johny wrote:
> Writing up a scary route that you couldnt even lead properly
>by placing the gear is in my opinion very low and potentially dangerous
>to repeat ascents.

Absolutely. Just think of all the uni-club punters who are going to come along and get injured on this thing, because they'll assume that if Sonnie Trotter could lead it placing gear it must be totally safe.

johny

19-Feb-2016
10:07:03 AM

>Absolutely. Just think of all the uni-club punters who are going to come
>along and get injured on this thing, because they'll assume that if Sonnie
>Trotter could lead it placing gear it must be totally safe.

yes of course this is my primary concern as always... the children. So far Goshen is the only person who actually presented his opinion about pre-placed gear and he has a sensible approach I reckon. I just think it is a bit more black and white when it comes to FFA.
You and the good dr. and the rest of the internet seem to be engaging in a retarded debate no matter the topic where points are won on semantics and outlandish analogy. The reason why I posted this is to tray and build a consensus about something that I think is pretty important in climbing. But why bother in this forum?

f_abe

19-Feb-2016
10:15:53 AM

>But why bother in this forum?

To make people realise the humbling reality that your true climbing ability is measured by the trad routes you climb ground up placing all gear (onsight preferably, but harder routes can take a lot longer, which I personally don't see that as a bad thingl), not the bolted routes you turn to to boost your ego (guilty as charged)...?

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
10:28:20 AM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>You and the good dr.
>and the rest of the internet seem to be engaging in a retarded debate no
>matter the topic where points are won on semantics and outlandish analogy.
>The reason why I posted this is to tray and build a consensus about something
>that I think is pretty important in climbing.

No, the good dr gave you his concise and correct summary of this issue. If the rock wasn't altered, there is no ethical concern. All the rest is ego trip and wank.

I personally prefer to attempt to onsite placing gear. However, above my 'good style limit' there are certain routes of such high quality that I can obtain enjoyment by climbing them in poor style. The style in which I end up climbing hardish routes is usually an attempt to balance the lameness of preplaced gear against the patheticness of dogging the shit out of a climb for days on end. An added factor is the gong show which is required to remove gear between shots on an overhanging trad route, just so that one can put it back in again twenty minutes later.


gordoste

19-Feb-2016
10:35:14 AM

Anyone ever consider that perhaps Sonnie just wrote about something he did because he thought people might be interested, and the climbing hype-machine took over from there?

johny

19-Feb-2016
10:49:21 AM

On 19/02/2016 f_abe wrote:
>But why bother in this forum?
>
>To make people realise the humbling reality that your true climbing ability
>is measured by the trad routes you climb ground up placing all gear (onsight
>preferably, but harder routes can take a lot longer, which I personally
>don't see that as a bad thingl),

Yeah pretty much. :) But my main point is that if someone is putting up their hand and saying, "look at this first free ascent I just did!" they better have done it right or just don't bother telling anyone. Does anyone outside of thecrag.com really care what someone top roped?

The history of climbing is a progression. So harder and harder routes get done.El Cap was free climbed then onsighted, etc. People climbing harder trad routes INSPIRES me. I don't think of it as wank and ego. I guess if a person feels they are in the game at whatever grade they climb then people climbing hard inspires them. If a person is out of shape, refuses to train or try hard at climbing it may seem like wank and ego.

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
11:20:30 AM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>I guess if
>a person feels they are in the game at whatever grade they climb then
>people climbing hard inspires them.

You're making the mistake of thinking that your experience is everyone's experience. I've just seen enough examples first hand, where the reality of what happened at the crag was pathetic yet the media release was 'inspiring'.

I don't think you have to be a total whore to be a self-promoting "pro climber", but it sure doesn't hurt

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
12:04:55 PM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>Yeah pretty much. :) But my main point is that if someone is putting up
>their hand and saying, "look at this first free ascent I just did!" they
>better have done it right or just don't bother telling anyone.

Actually, I'd kinda appreciate your input on a 'hypothetical' example.
Imagine that a friend of mine is working on what will almost certainly be the hardest trad route in the country. He's pretty close to climbing it clean with the gear in, but placing on lead both becomes the crux and adds significant danger (blind placement of single wire, with 15m groundfall assured if wire pops). Now, the concern is that if he were to climb the thing gear-in and report it as such, a whole host of internet bitches (who will never be strong enough to climb the route themselves) will chime in and claim that the ascent is invalid.
So, speaking hypothetically, as an internet bitch who isn't strong enough to climb this thing in any style, what would your response be?

Lee C

19-Feb-2016
12:21:12 PM

Re 'hypothetical' example...

It'll be a significant ascent of hard sport climb.... and likely more significant for Aus as it'll be on something other than sandstone.

Lee C

19-Feb-2016
12:23:26 PM

I know you asked for CJ's input but I couldn't resist....

Personally the distinction between sport and trad is in the style of the ascent not in the method of protection.

johny

19-Feb-2016
12:24:03 PM

>Actually, I'd kinda appreciate your input on a 'hypothetical' example.
>Imagine that a friend of mine is working on what will almost certainly
>be the hardest trad route in the country. He's pretty close to climbing
>it clean with the gear in, but placing on lead both becomes the crux and
>adds significant danger (blind placement of single wire, with 15m groundfall
>assured if wire pops). Now, the concern is that if he were to climb the
>thing gear-in and report it as such, a whole host of internet bitches (who
>will never be strong enough to climb the route themselves) will chime in
>and claim that the ascent is invalid. So, speaking hypothetically, as an
>internet bitch who isn't strong enough to climb this thing in any style,
>what would your response be?

well minus the aggression I would agree with these hypothetical internet critics and say it is an invalid ascent.

What you just described hypothetically is pretty much the route sonny climbed! Except its like a 6 metre ground fall. The route is over after 12 metres. Locals were battling with this for years with the crux really being placing the gear on lead. I never put alot of energy into it because of the gear thing. I dont like headpoints. But that is the route. Its a borderline gear is just there kind of thing. Its a mind f*ck.

Actually of equal concern is not "the hardest" trad climb but people pre-placing gear on run out moderate routes.
Supposedly a grade 22 was recently done on Ben Lomond where the leader asked a guy above him to rap in and pre-place a wire to protect the crux after said leader had already top roped the moves and dialed the gear. It was written up as bold but 3 stars.
So my concern is that first, the leader is full of shit about being bold and more important that repeat ascentionists repeat this moderate grade route and waste themselves because it is impossible to actually protect the moves.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Feb-2016
1:17:38 PM

On 19/02/2016 Lee C wrote:
>(snip)
>Personally the distinction between sport and trad is in the style of the ascent not in the method of protection.

?
Hmm. So (hypothetically), two people struggle their way up hard lines of comparable difficulty move-wise...
How does abseil bolting/ringing of a line, such that the clips are conveniently placed and are sure things, compare in your distinction to fiddly trad gear that may not have available placement options at convenience clipping locations, and may not be secure even if made on (by-default) bold run-outs, especially for onsight ground up ascents?

I think that the two genres have a lot more to 'distincting' them than your suggested simple formula...
☺

grangrump

19-Feb-2016
1:27:37 PM

On 19/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>Imagine that a friend of mine is working on what will almost certainly
>be the hardest trad route in the country. He's pretty close to climbing
>it clean with the gear in, but placing on lead both becomes the crux and
>adds significant danger (blind placement of single wire, with 15m groundfall
>assured if wire pops)...
Back in the day, you just left a fixed wire there. and said so.

kieranl

19-Feb-2016
2:06:44 PM

On 19/02/2016 grangrump wrote:
>On 19/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Imagine that a friend of mine is working on what will almost certainly
>>be the hardest trad route in the country. He's pretty close to climbing
>>it clean with the gear in, but placing on lead both becomes the crux
>and
>>adds significant danger (blind placement of single wire, with 15m groundfall
>>assured if wire pops)...
>Back in the day, you just left a fixed wire there. and said so.

But didn't necessarily admit that 2/3rds of the wire was broken and the thing was barely good for bodyweight.

ps Just been out to get popcorn.

kieranl

19-Feb-2016
2:29:02 PM

In most respects I agree with Johny's position : style matters. But it takes things a bit far to call ascents "valid" or "invalid" depending on styles. Some styles may be a joke but that of itself doesn't make them invalid.

johny

19-Feb-2016
3:00:42 PM

On 19/02/2016 kieranl wrote:
>In most respects I agree with Johny's position : style matters. But it
>takes things a bit far to call ascents "valid" or "invalid" depending on
>styles. Some styles may be a joke but that of itself doesn't make them
>invalid

I think that is what Lee was getting at. That preplaced is like a sport climb. I would like to believe that we are at a place now where no one would consider a top-roped sports route as a ffa. I believe that pre-placed gear routes are the same as toproping a sport climb (actually worse). So basically both are invalid as far as FFA goes. In Australia we can have mixed routes right? I think the controversy is to bolt or not to bolt. Once its decided to go with gear than place the gear on lead. The old way of leaving a fixed wire is pretty obviously stupid and I think went out of fashion the same time lycra was coming in.

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
3:09:28 PM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>well minus the aggression........

Have a sook mate. You kicked this thread off by dropping a bomb on someone, then had a nice little dig at me too. That's all part of the fun, but don't get your panties in a twist when someone gives you a bit back.

>
>What you just described hypothetically is pretty much the route sonny
>climbed! Except its like a 6 metre ground fall. The route is over after
>12 metres.

Not really the same, there's no suggestion of toproping through the crux, and bouldering pads won't help. I agree with Lee that it becomes more like a run out sport route, because the gear which can be placed on rap is sound. But I think it would still be a legit ascent, worth reporting, and obviously the possibility of a first "full marks" ascent is still there for the taking.

>
>Actually of equal concern is not "the hardest" trad climb but people pre-placing
>gear on run out moderate routes.
>Supposedly a grade 22 was recently done on Ben Lomond where the leader
>asked a guy above him to rap in and pre-place a wire to protect the crux
>after said leader had already top roped the moves and dialed the gear.
>It was written up as bold but 3 stars.
>So my concern is that first, the leader is full of shit about being bold
>and more important that repeat ascentionists repeat this moderate grade
>route and waste themselves because it is impossible to actually protect
>the moves.

If the write up contains any of the words; bold, scary, dangerous, run out, R, X, etc, then responsibility falls fully onto the aspiring repeat ascentionist. About to die cause you can't find good gear? Tough shit, you were warned.
Now the other half of this is that you are clearly contesting the validity of the first ascent, and it comes across like you don't respect the climber and think they are receiving undue credit. See my above comments about pissing matches and wank.

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
3:21:22 PM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>I believe that pre-placed
>gear routes are the same as toproping a sport climb (actually worse). So
>basically both are invalid as far as FFA goes. In Australia we can have
>mixed routes right? I think the controversy is to bolt or not to bolt.
>Once its decided to go with gear than place the gear on lead.

So when I saw you and Squib dogging the living shit out of Ethiopia with the gear all in, did you eventually go back and tick it properly (including placing the rp at the India crux)?

johny

19-Feb-2016
4:31:24 PM

Here we go again with your insane (inane?) analogies. Im talking about ffa. Repeat anything you want in whatever style you want. India was probably lead with fixed gear like many of the routes back then done in what most people today would reckon dodgy style. This is exactly what Im suggesting we move away from by having a clear standard of establishing first ascents.

Its actually not that controversial. Most people establishing 5.13 or harder follow this ethic. I think it should be for easier routes. This whole "as long as you are honest" about the style of ascent seems to get forgotten pretty quickly.

Ethiopia has one additional bit of fixed gear at the roof after India. The rest is bolts. Its not a trad route in the slightest. If you are going to use an analogy please keep to routes you actually know about so we have a starting reference point. Again we didnt do the first ascent so its an irrelevant comparison on pretty much every level... as usual. And what is this dogging the living shit comment? I think I spent about as many days dogging ethiopia as you did on punks in the gunks. In fact punks in the gunks is the only thing I have ever climbed with you. And it provides a great starting point for reading the rest of your comments. If it makes you feel better I guided a 15 year old girl up that route a couple weeks later and she climbed it in the same style as you- That is toproped with the second bolt preclipped from 10 metres up. So you are a role model of sorts. Congrats.

One Day Hero

19-Feb-2016
5:07:35 PM

On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>Here we go again with your insane (inane?) analogies. Im talking about
>ffa. Repeat anything you want in whatever style you want.

Ahahaha, you didn't make this clear before. So, a first ascent is bound by incredibly strict rules, then everyone else can roll up afterwards and claim the tick in whatever abominable style they see fit? Got it, that seems totally rational.

>Ethiopia has one additional bit of fixed gear at the roof after India.
>The rest is bolts. Its not a trad route in the slightest. If you are going
>to use an analogy please keep to routes you actually know about so we have
>a starting reference point.

There's three bolts, a peg, and about seven or eight bits of gear (if I remember correctly).
That's a mixed route. I would assume that a best style ascent would involve placing all the removable gear on lead, but now that I understand style is irrelevant on repeat ascents, it's all good.

>In fact punks in
>the gunks is the only thing I have ever climbed with you. And it provides
>a great starting point for reading the rest of your comments. If it makes
>you feel better I guided a 15 year old girl up that route a couple weeks
>later and she climbed it in the same style as you- That is toproped with
>the second bolt preclipped from 10 metres up. So you are a role model of
>sorts. Congrats.

This is the slagging match I was looking for. Although you aren't wrong, I would like to add that there were extenuating circumstances, and I don't in any way consider what I did to be a 'tick' of Punks in the Gunks (which I found to be a pretty dumb route, won't be rushing back to get the redpoint)

It's isn't the only time we climbed together either. I dragged you out to Taipan when you were being all mopey and depressed cause Punks was slapping you around. You ticked Sidewinder, it was really good day.

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