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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 6 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 129
Author
Sonnie Trotter Goes Down on Tasmania
johny
25-Feb-2016
2:50:38 PM
Hey just for the record Gez, I have alot of respect for your climbs at Ben Lomond. Those routes are scary and awesome for the most part and I think put up in an really great style that is not often repeated in Australia. So seriously hats off... And this is not a setup line! :)

I singled out one of the recent new pitches as a real example to avoid hypotheticals but this one pitch is a kind of singular exception to the rule up there. So maybe a hypothetical would have been better?

So basically I think I cut off my nose to spite my face. Tassie is doing things pretty good which is really why I arced up with Sonny in the first place. Well I think I went a bit too far in my rantings so will bow out of this little Brew-ha-ha.


IdratherbeclimbingM9
25-Feb-2016
3:14:22 PM
Tastrad wrote:
>the FFA is the starting point, and not some ethical highpoint

I think Tastrad makes a valid point.

Johny replied:
>But the lame justification "as long as you are honest with the style" is obviously a recognition that you are ashamed of the style. So why bother putting up your hand and bragging about it? Just do it right in the first place.

?
The style might well be different to that preferred but I think the key word is 'honest' here.
Not being party to the Tasmanian local scene I take the statement Tastrad made at face value and don't think it is about shame (or pride), but about documenting the history of a cliff/area, as I think most people who progress to new-routing know enough about the game we play to try and do it in the best style they can.
I may be naive in this view!

Johny also wrote:
>SCARY BOLD routes in the wilderness. It becomes really boring to hear about all these brave routes no one actually leads.

Not every route needs documenting (especially if put up in shit style!), if the first ascentionist is into real-anarchy!
A case in point, ... I've put up (probably shit)-routes in the wilderness that are undocumented, and I don't give a rats if they ever get repeated(!), as I like to think I've left room for adventure for following generations...
They might begin to wonder though, when they come across an old bit of manila tatt, that their adventure there is the first at that location!

>Narcoblitzed!
... It used to be called sandbagging?
Heh, heh, heh.

>Well I think I went a bit too far in my rantings so will bow out of this little Brew-ha-ha.
I thought you were just getting warmed up, ... but I may just be a slow reader, so I look forward to more debate on the subject!
Tastrad
25-Feb-2016
3:51:51 PM
Doing new routes has got everything to do with it..
The first ascensionist has to have the vision to conceive the route, the faith in his/her ability to climb it, clean the route (sometimes for days), bolt the route if necessary (and the expense of bolts) and the filthy, strenuous work it is; project the route, sometimes in remote areas, until eventual success.
It is a continual quest for discovery and adventure...way more motivating for me than repeating existing climbs.

Why is it that a low percentage of climbers have ever done a new route? Is it because they lack vision, too much hard work, no unclimbed rock? One year I put up 80 new climbs in the South Esk.."but are they routes of quality" a cynic asked me. That question is nonsensical to a new router..every new route must have had some redeeming quality for the first ascensionist to rope up beneath it..even if the motive is as base as thoroughness of development of your local crag..every offwidth and line must be climbed in the name of thoroughness of discovery.

I go new routing every weekend..have done for over 30 years..and when it comes to claiming a FFA, it makes sense to have a lowest common denominator..not an ethical highpoint, otherwise half the climbs wouldn't exist..and its silly to have different rules for sport and trad..throw all ethics of style out the window for sport routes, but insist on purity for trad.
I think there's one rule..get the FFA by free climbing it with no hangs on gear in the best style you can manage..redpointed, pinkpointed, brown pointed, dick pointed whatever..and improve on the style later on if you want to.

shortman
25-Feb-2016
4:16:43 PM
On 25/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>Doing new routes has got everything to do with it..
>The first ascensionist has to have the vision to conceive the route, the
>faith in his/her ability to climb it, clean the route (sometimes for days),
>bolt the route if necessary (and the expense of bolts) and the filthy,
>strenuous work it is; project the route, sometimes in remote areas, until
>eventual success.
>It is a continual quest for discovery and adventure...way more motivating
>for me than repeating existing climbs.
>

So how does this make the route not there before?


>Why is it that a low percentage of climbers have ever done a new route?

Fear? Laziness?

>Is it because they lack vision, too much hard work, no unclimbed rock?

You tell me.

>One year I put up 80 new climbs in the South Esk..

I'm so not worthy of this conversation.

>"but are they routes
>of quality" a cynic asked me. That question is nonsensical to a new router..every
>new route must have had some redeeming quality...

Like existing before you came along?

>....for the first ascensionist
>to rope up beneath it..even if the motive is as base as thoroughness of
>development of your local crag..every offwidth and line must be climbed
>in the name of thoroughness of discovery.
>
>I go new routing every weekend..have done for over 30 years..and when
>it comes to claiming a FFA, it makes sense to have a lowest common denominator..not
>an ethical highpoint, otherwise half the climbs wouldn't exist..and its
>silly to have different rules for sport and trad..throw all ethics of style
>out the window for sport routes, but insist on purity for trad.
>I think there's one rule..get the FFA by free climbing it with no hangs
>on gear in the best style you can manage..redpointed, pinkpointed, brown
>pointed, dick pointed whatever..and improve on the style later on if you
>want to.

So does that mean my awesome grade 9's and trundling a few rocks, brushing a few faces, and jemmying a few flakes disqualifies me from having an opinion?
One Day Hero
25-Feb-2016
4:29:00 PM
On 25/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>That question is nonsensical to a new router..every
>new route must have had some redeeming quality for the first ascensionist
>to rope up beneath it..even if the motive is as base as thoroughness of
>development of your local crag..every offwidth and line must be climbed
>in the name of thoroughness of discovery.

Ugh, this shit makes my blood boil. What you describe is called ocd, try to come to terms with it. The new routers who I most respect either have the taste to only establish worthwhile lines as routes, or (probably more often the case) moderate their ocd tendencies because they have the best interests of the climbing community at heart. Bolting no-star filler routes which detract from the good ones is not something to be proud of!

ambyeok
25-Feb-2016
11:13:53 PM
On 25/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>proven method of education and firsthand knowledge in the field.

What a crock of elitism. The basic arguments as I gather them are about whether you rap inspect, pre-place, stick clip, rehearse, clean, yoyo, love or hate the poms, blah blah etc. Simple concepts and anyone with half a lemon of climbing experience is perfectly qualified to comment on matters of style. What are you gonna do, put up a Safer FFA thread to talk secret squirrel chit chat?

[crude analogy cheerfully removed after some retrospect and for benefit of younger viewers]
Tastrad
26-Feb-2016
9:03:23 AM
One day hero..what a fun sucker you are! Why does me pottering around the local crags having fun and doing new routes upset you so much.

Its not OCD..its my climbing life, my fun..and no-one has the right to judge me for that..like I said, every first ascent is a worthwhile line, to the first ascensionist at least. I don't think I've bolted a single no-star filler..at $5 a bolt, why would I waste my money..and the majority of the 800 or so new routes I've done are trad routes..which are obvious lines.

I don't bolt a route or put up a trad climb for anyone elses enjoyment except mine..the only responsibility I have towards the community is to bolt them safely and report them accurately, and I don't give a rats arse if anyone repeats them. If you pander to the community any more than that, you get the absurd situation of someone bolting a gym hold to the crag at Duck Reach, to create an enjoyable route for the community, because not everyone can climb 27, or bolting offwidths because not everyone owns a #5 camalot.

As for shortman, read Bob's quote again..the route did not exist before someone climbed it. A route by definition is a path that's been travelled..before that it was a non-descript piece of rock. The climb is a creation of the first ascensionist. I've done plenty of trundling and brushed moss off some awesome grade 9's myself, so more power to ya.

So, trying to steer this thread back to its original theme, the first ascentionist also creates a precedent for a crag for style, bolts, mixed routes, type of bolts etc.
Nick Hancrock still places carrots in some locations to minimize visual impact. Sam Edwards originally tried to keep the Paradiso as a mixed gear crag in deference to trad ethics..if there was an obvious bomber trad piece, no bolt went there. 20 years later, people are retrobolting them out of laziness because they cant be bothered carrying one cam up a route.
Ben Lomond is bolt free, so hard new trad routes have to be cleaned, rehearsed, gear inspected, otherwise you die. Sonny led c-head crack with pre-placed wires and the first few were pre-clipped to save a ground fall..no worse than stick-clipping a high first bolt. Its not great style, but still counts as a first free ascent. Judgemental fun-suckers would deny him that.

If only the ethical highpoint counted as the first free ascent, that is ground up, placing gear on lead, lowering after a fall, pulling the ropes etc, then a legitimate repeat would only count if done in the same style. Even though I'm loathe to support pre-placed gear, it makes sense to have, as Dave Jones suggests, the FFA in whatever style as the benchmark, the lowest common denominator so to speak..and repeat ascents can improve the style, but not claim the first free ascent.

If the FA was done in impeccable style, then the shenanigans of repeaters in lesser style would still count as a free ascent, with room for improvement.

ambyeok
26-Feb-2016
11:01:34 AM
How bout this, the FFA is recorded in whatever style and written up with year and name. If any subsequent repeat in a better style, the name of the original FFA is permanently stricken from the record and replaced with the name of the new FFA. You can keep both years, original and best style year, cause its nice to know. So the original FFA in poor style can try and improve their style or else let someone better come and take the route and the glory.

rodw
26-Feb-2016
11:10:36 AM
On 26/02/2016 ambyeok wrote:
> If any subsequent repeat in a better style, the name of
>the original FFA is permanently stricken from the record and replaced with
>the name of the new FFA.

Oh dear there go all my easy route FA's as people deicide to solo them (I'm assuming thats a better style?)..glory is fleeting it seems :)

The good Dr
26-Feb-2016
1:49:31 PM
Did I miss anything?
kieranl
26-Feb-2016
2:00:35 PM
On 26/02/2016 rodw wrote:
>On 26/02/2016 ambyeok wrote:
>> If any subsequent repeat in a better style, the name of
>>the original FFA is permanently stricken from the record and replaced
>with
>>the name of the new FFA.
>
>Oh dear there go all my easy route FA's as people deicide to solo them
>(I'm assuming thats a better style?)..glory is fleeting it seems :)
And then there's the FNSA (first Naked Solo Ascent) and the FN3LSSA (First Naked 3-Legged Simultaneous Solo Ascent) - the list is almost endless and the prospective arguments about where these rank in the style spectrum even more endless..

ambyeok
26-Feb-2016
2:10:00 PM
Point taken, it all gets a bit bureaucratic doesn't it. Still, its the platform I'm taking into the next election. Vote #1 ambyeok
Tastrad
26-Feb-2016
2:36:45 PM
FNSA (first naked solo ascent) is called a dick point

Eduardo Slabofvic
26-Feb-2016
3:26:36 PM
First ascent with a plastic bag over your head (i.e. no oxygen, what so ever).

The good Dr
26-Feb-2016
4:01:04 PM
What about FAPS (First Ascent in Perfect Style). I am sure that johny would have many FAPS against their name.
Jayford4321
26-Feb-2016
4:43:02 PM
On 26/02/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>First ascent with a plastic bag over your head (i.e. no oxygen, what so ever).

Aw cmon Ed.
How many times can U recycle Ur plastic bag?
I heard U used that trick at the last fancy dress sesh at simeys where something about lookin like a condom was mentioned.

Bak on topic of measurin things.
>80 routes at south Esk

Shortie, U R worthy!
Most of em are 5m, 1 move wonder, pieces of bolted pox.
OdearH, is he going to hell?

ambyeok, Uv got my vote.
One Day Hero
26-Feb-2016
11:01:30 PM
On 26/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
>One day hero..what a fun sucker you are! Why does me pottering around the
>local crags having fun and doing new routes upset you so much.

It doesn't bother me that much......unless you also write the guidebook, hype your new crags to the max, and trick me into wasting days when I could have been climbing mega classics instead!
>
>I don't think I've bolted a single
>no-star filler

You must assume I've never been to Hillwood, or that sandstone pox pit whose name I've erased from my brain.

>at $5 a bolt, why would I waste my money?

Trust me, I was asking that question at Hillwood.

> As for shortman, read Bob's quote again..the route did not exist before
>someone climbed it. A route by definition is a path that's been travelled..before
>that it was a non-descript piece of rock. The climb is a creation of the
>first ascensionist.

Look, I won't speak ill of someone who's kicked the #4 tube chock, but just cause Bob wrote it in a book does not make it so.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1-Mar-2016
11:26:24 AM
On 25/02/2016 Tastrad wrote:
(snip)
>Here's a quote from Bob McMahon's memoirs which is a way more eloquent
>response than anything I could come up with.

>A climb is something which has taken place on a piece of rock and changed
>utterly, and forever, the nature of the rock. After a climb has been put
>up, the rock is a different thing. There may be people, purists they would
>view themselves, who see the virgin rock as becoming a lesser thing for
>having been climbed on. With this sense of loss uppermost in mind, they
>hold the belief that the climbs once done, should at the very least, not
>be publicized. The reasons are many and most of us have a fair degree of
>sympathy with them. Regardless of all the reasons, my mind switches to
>an inescapable respect for the facts of the matter, an overwhelming desire
>to do justice to the creation, (the climb – above all, the climb) and the
>creator, the person whose act changed the rock irrevocably.
>
>How much we avert our attention from the polluted river and see only the
>cliffs is brought home when travelling farther up the river past Duck Reach,
>and the absolute delight one feels as all the elements coincide of clean
>river, clean rock, clean air and golden sunlight – a coincidence missing
>from the lower reaches, and we are so impoverished because of it.
>
>The collection of facts is a relatively easy pursuit, especially when
>the facts are at such close hand, and their arrangement a satisfying thing
>and to me a significant thing. When all the climbs are listed, described
>and illustrated, I get a picture of my years of activity that in no other
>fashion would I get. I see before me the enormous amount of time I have
>spent rambling this river bed and these river banks. I can see before me
>the pointers to my intimate knowledge and I know that the time it took
>is time well and truly filled. This guide should be viewed as the product
>of a satisfied person who filled his days pursuing that most beautifully
>useless of all human activities; climbing. (Bob McMahon 1982)


1982 eh?
Hmm. Here is a quote from Royal Robbins; Basic Rockcraft; La Siesta Press; 1971; Pages 61-65.
Ethics & Style.

Ethics.
Actions which directly affect others in the climbing community are properly questions of ethics. Several might be considered, but we will be concerned with only one.

Preservation: The primary ethical consideration involves leaving a route unchanged so others may enjoy, as nearly as possible, the creation of those who made the first ascent. Through the years there has been controversy over questions of placing and removing bolts, as well as other questions such as destroying holds or creating them with the pick end of the hammer. Those removing bolts (and holds) often think everyone should do a route in the best possible style or not at all. This is extreme.

Climbing in good style is admirable, but must everyone be forced to do so? Opposing these super-purists are extremists of the opposite bent who insist all routes should be accessible to all persons. A compromise is in order, one based upon a simple point of reference.

The first ascent principle: A climb is a work of art, a creation of those who made the first ascent. To make it more difficult by chopping bolts is to insult those who put it up and to deprive others of the joy of repeating the route as the first party did it. It is like taking anothers painting or poem and 'improving' it. Better to paint our own pictures and write our own poems. On the other hand, to bring a climb down to one's level by placing bolts (or pitons on an all nut climb) shows an equally lamentable lack of respect for, and degrades the accomplishments of, its creators. If we do not disturb the route done in a shoddy manner (eg the placement of unnecessary bolts), it will do no harm, and may provide a good climb for the less capable. And as for the route done in elegant fashion - let it remain as a pinnacle of achievement to which we may aspire. Better that we raise our skill than lower the climb. So let it be.

The above definition of climbing ethics, self-limiting as it is, has the advantage of avoiding the chancy area of pre-judging the way a first ascent should be done. This is left entirely to the individual and becomes a question not of ethics but of style.

Style.
'Style' is a slippery word, difficult to define. In rockclimbing it refers to the methods and equipment used, and the degree of 'adventure' involved in the ascent. Adventure here means the degree of uncertainty as to the outcome. Generally, methods and equipment determine the amount of adventure. Thus, by using the method of siege climbing (returning repeatedly to inch fixed lines higher and still higher) and using as part of our equipment an unlimited number of bolts - success on any pure rock climb on earth, no matter how flawless, is virtually assured. There would be no adventure in such an endeavor, and it would be in the worst possible style. On the other hand, to assault a great wall in a direct, committing way, without fixed lines, and with a limited amount of food, water, and equipment, is to climb in good style. It is to place more trust on one's personal qualities and skill, and less reliance on equipment and laborious methods. But the style must be suited to the climb. To use good big-wall style on a little wall is to turn good style to bad. To climb in good style is to climb in the most natural way possible, to do it with the smallest number of technical aids. The first technological aid to be eliminated, if possible, is the bolt, for it can be placed anywhere. With pitons one at least needs a crack, though almost any size and shape will do. Jammed nuts are better, for with them we must adapt to the nature of the crack. We must work with the rock; we can't force it. It is more natural. Better still are runners placed on the natural belay points such as horns, trees, or chockstones. And finally, we come to climbing alone, without a rope. But that will be for the few. The trick is to suit the style to the climb and to oneself. The truly ultimate style is the perfect match - the treading of that fine edge between ambition and ability.

Granted we are free to try to climb in any style we choose as long as we don't damage the route, what about the many individuals who desire a better definition of the 'good game', those who aren't so much interested in getting up routes as in meeting the essential challenge of them? What is a good general goal to shoot for - one which, when achieved, will leave us with a feeling of accomplishment, of having done the route in the right way? In other words, 'what is the point of the game'? Every climb is different. A good standard which is always applicable and yet which allows for the individuality of each route is our first ascent principle. It can guide us in questions of style as well as ethics. If we take for our general stylistic goal the way the first ascent was done, we have a ready made, always available standard for a minimum style to shoot for.
The acceptance of this principle has the advantage of obviating general style controversies. A further advantage is that the style of the first ascent is a reasonable goal, for those who come after have the psychological advantage of knowing the route will go, as well as a description of the route.
If we regard the style in which a route was established, we pay respect to those who did it, and show we are aware of their values and that we consider their climb a creation, not just another climb to be knocked off and checked in our guidebook.

It makes for interesting reading in my opinion, and he elaborated further still on those topics in his second book in 1973...

Post edit:
For con-text, the early '70's were a pivotal time in the golden age of Yosemite climbing and Royal Robbins was one of the 'larger than life' Yosemite-characters that was no stranger to the controversies of that era. He and the likes of Yvon Chouinard picked up the clean climbing ethos and ran with it...
Without doing the searching, I'm pretty sure Yvon wrote stuff (in his book-like climbing catalogues) reflecting the 'climbs as creations' point of view as well.
Maybe Bob McMahon (like me), also picked up on, and identified with, that sentiment from those times...?
rowan
3-Mar-2016
10:56:13 AM
On 19/02/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 19/02/2016 johny wrote:
>>Yeah pretty much. :) But my main point is that if someone is putting
>up
>>their hand and saying, "look at this first free ascent I just did!" they
>>better have done it right or just don't bother telling anyone.
>
>Actually, I'd kinda appreciate your input on a 'hypothetical' example.
>
>Imagine that a friend of mine is working on what will almost certainly
>be the hardest trad route in the country. He's pretty close to climbing
>it clean with the gear in, but placing on lead both becomes the crux and
>adds significant danger (blind placement of single wire, with 15m groundfall
>assured if wire pops). Now, the concern is that if he were to climb the
>thing gear-in and report it as such, a whole host of internet bitches (who
>will never be strong enough to climb the route themselves) will chime in
>and claim that the ascent is invalid.
>So, speaking hypothetically, as an internet bitch who isn't strong enough
>to climb this thing in any style, what would your response be?

I reckon if your friend is hypothetically trying vertigo the piece of gear can quite easily be placed on lead he may have just chosen the incorrect piece. A blue totem cam goes in sweet. It's blind but you don't need to look at it to know its bomber. I havn't done all the moves on that thing but have done all the gear placing moves and would be comfortable to fall on the pieces placed on lead.

I reckon a new system could work for trad routes where if you climb the route in better style you get to rename it and the previous ascent is ignored. Pre-placed gear in Australia has happened a fair bit I reckon but I don't know about top roping and claiming it. I'm sure if a different route had the first part and the part that makes it hard top roped and then change to leading on the easy bit, it would not be counted.

But. He hasn't ruined any subsequent experience other than the glory of claiming a first ascent maybe. But that's all just in your mind if you think his ascent doesn't count.
grangrump
3-Mar-2016
11:50:01 AM
Ah Vertigo.
I hear the sports maestros are happy on the top crack(s) but don't like the jamBing down low...
But yes it should all go on gear

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