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mousey

12-Aug-2004
10:27:52 AM

ahh i believe i have seen the said rohan at bouldering comps occasionally
--
well said rod

chris

12-Aug-2004
11:13:13 AM

So the underlying message of this thread is... it's ok to chip if your names Michael or Neil, or you did it 20 years ago at araps, but everybody else just F..K off!
Now how do you spell hippocritical.... two "p"s or one?

And Neil, you do a great deal of good work, but can you truly tell me you asked all the local older guys before you chipped the holds in "Winged Corpse"? I bet I know what they would have said!


shmalec

12-Aug-2004
11:30:22 AM

I think the underlying message is a) you have to draw the line somewhere but it’s a personal decision and b) an awful lot people are passionate about the issue and their opinions count as much as yours. So find out what other people think about the area before you act.

chris

12-Aug-2004
11:35:18 AM

Sorry Neil, I know you've been taking a neutral line on this.... I agree with your posts, by the way.
I do think that people being very critical of Robbo (rohan?) should be consistent, and might have to start being rude to yourself, or Mike Law (who's done "Hit the Deck"?).
It's a lot harder to say F..K off to people you know personally! Much easier to do it on the internet to people you don't know, with a bit of backing from others (yes I'm talking about your post Damietta and phil nev).


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
11:39:24 AM

I still think this is a troll... but here goes another wasted time reply!

On 12/08/2004 chris wrote:
>So the underlying message of this thread is... it's ok to chip if your
>names Michael or Neil, or you did it 20 years ago at araps, but everybody
>else just F..K off!
>Now how do you spell hippocritical.... two "p"s or one?

I don't think most people reckon what i did is a good thing. In fact I would imagine that many now have a different view on who I am. Admitting to chipping one route has not gained me many new friends - and it certainly isn't accepted by most on this forum. I didn't say f^&k off in fact i said "Tread softly and ask around before drilling. New routes are always great - and I am sure I would enjoy your climb."

>And Neil, you do a great deal of good work, but can you truly tell me
>you asked all the local older guys before you chipped the holds in "Winged
>Corpse"? I bet I know what they would have said!

I spent a year climbing in Victoria before I started doing new bolted routes in the Grampians. I bought all the guidebooks avialable, climbed all over the Grampians getting a feeling for the style, ethics ect of the place and spoke with the current guidebook author (James McIntosh) before the devlopment of Centurion. For every other crag I have done routes on I have asked the respective guidebook author and first ascentists for information. I don't get 'permission' to do things - i do what i want - but i do get a feel for what others expect. I guess what worried me most was this guy didn't just chip one climb - but made the point that he has discovered a whole new crag which he has deemed to be 'chippable'. I know several semi-blank caves in the Grampians which have aboriginal art which are not marked.


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
11:51:31 AM

I realize I am being hippocritical but I think learning from my experiance (mistakes) is a good thing. I have always climbed on my own with no 'senior' mentors. That is just the way I have always done things. I bolted my first sport climbs in Queensland when i was 16. No one showed me what to do or told me what was right or wrong. I just read things in magazines (Claw's bolting article in Rock was my bible!) and made up my own mind. I have made plenty of mistakes because no-one was around to tell me what I was doing was wrong! Ignorance is an excuse. If people tell me (or Rohan) what is wrong then we have no excuse to pretend we didn't know better. When you are young you do your own thing - and I am all for that freedom. Just hopefully some of the ideas of the elders might rub off onto us 'youngsters or not so youngsters' a bit...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

12-Aug-2004
1:12:45 PM

It’s all a game.

Ethics are our ‘self-imposed’ way of having a context within which to climb / measure ourselves.

The ethics of one individual can (and often does) differ from the ethics of the next individual, however from a larger perspective we are all part of a climbing community by our acts/participation of/in climbing, regardless of how we may individually perceive (or present) ourselves.
This has a couple of important repercussions;
 Peer attitude / pressure /respect / recognition
 Environmental (both now and FOR the future).

We can debate the fine points, but in the end we have to live with the consequences of our individual/collective actions.

Peoples attitudes and actions change over time due to a whole host of reasons, along with technological advances, but the one thing that remains relatively constant (measured by a humans lifespan timeframe) is the rock.

None of us has the right to usurp the future by the consequences of our (short-term) actions in the present. This is why the climbing majority consensus decrees that chipping is wrong.

Our society is sufficiently robust that it can cope with the odd aberration, and it’s probably not hypocritical to climb on a chipped route, particularly if it helps to form/consolidate an opinion.
My fear is that when it becomes accepted as the ‘normal’ mode of our thinking that we have already stepped over the line of usurping the future.

The game is climbing.
We are our own umpires.

This forum (including any trolls on it), are good if they galvanise respect for each other and the rock.

I would not want it any other way.

(This is a fitting post to celebrate my 600th)!


Damietta

12-Aug-2004
1:59:29 PM

On 12/08/2004 chris wrote:
>Sorry Neil, I know you've been taking a neutral line on this.... I agree
>with your posts, by the way.
>I do think that people being very critical of Robbo (rohan?) should be
>consistent, and might have to start being rude to yourself, or Mike Law
>(who's done "Hit the Deck"?).
>It's a lot harder to say F..K off to people you know personally! Much
>easier to do it on the internet to people you don't know, with a bit of
>backing from others (yes I'm talking about your post Damietta and phil
>nev).

Dang, chill dem out. Eh? Boy? Eh?

Last night I had a turn and had nowhere else to channel the rage. The prose was composed on the premose that our fine friend is indeed stirring the cauldron. I think Phil, as with most people here, astutely realised the whole thing was a stitch up and was humouring the situation - there would have been no harm intended.

Something about Robbo's early line: "I like long walks on the beach" gave him away. We've all been joining Robbo for a long walk on the beach and it was been interesting and instructive.

PS A5, nice commentary

dalai

12-Aug-2004
2:15:56 PM

On 12/08/2004 Damietta wrote:

>Last night I had a turn and had nowhere else to channel the rage.

Someone may benefit from taking an anger management course perhaps?


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
3:21:19 PM

I have been doing some net research for my up-coming europe trip. I found this classic quote from an online guide to... Pian Schiavaneis, Dolomites, Italy...

"The climbing - Its friable overhanging limestone has been chipped, glued and drilled to sculpt routes of all grades, where power and stamina are essential and never enough. "

"It has evolved into the Dolomites' crucible of modern sports climbing, a playground for all and testing ground for the best. "


Damietta

12-Aug-2004
3:31:19 PM

Neilo, you will burn in hell for these sins, but, as we all feared, you'll be happy as a pig in sh### (mental image of Neil with horns, tail and staff, laughing, delighting in an eternity of chipped and drilled sport routes, stoking the fires with more sport climber carcasses)


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
3:40:28 PM

I instruct all of you Chockstoners to keep a tight leash on me when I return from Europe. You have my permission to beat me around the head, tie me to a pole and burn me alive if I start talking about chipping the Grampians.

climberer

12-Aug-2004
3:47:46 PM

On 12/08/2004 nmonteith wrote:

> I know several
>semi-blank caves in the Grampians which have aboriginal art which are not
>marked.
>

Neil - just wondering if you have spoken to Aboriginal Heritage about these sites, or if you ask their advice about any sites that may be in question? I have a friend who works there who may be interested in your local knowledge...I can email you his contact details if you like.


HEX

12-Aug-2004
3:53:17 PM

Yes indeed , it might be a secret-womans-bizness-site with oh-so-important-cryptic-anti-male-graffiti...

dalai

12-Aug-2004
3:53:37 PM

You will find that manufacturing is soo yesterday (read 80's) in Europe!! Cliffs developed in those years such as Buoux and Volx nearby are prime examples of the 80's ethics. Cliffs developed since are developed with better ethics.


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
3:55:45 PM

In many ways I would prefer not to talk to officialdom as they don't like me (alledgedly). The knowledge I have of most of the art sites comes from Mick Hampton who is writing the forthcoming Vic Ranges guidebook. Apparently the ones I know about are already recognized and recorded by the Parks Vic Grampians but are not public knowledge.


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
4:02:02 PM

On 12/08/2004 dalai wrote:
>You will find that manufacturing is soo yesterday (read 80's) in Europe!!

So, if I wear a red headband, a pair of stubbies and call myself Jibe it is ok?! ;-)

>Cliffs developed since are developed with better ethics.

The chipping i saw in the USA was very current (in 1999). I actually stumbled upon a WIP crag at Jacks Canyon when I went for a long run one day in the falling snow. There was much fresh evidence of drilling and comfortising of holds! That Domlomites quote comes from a very newly developed area. I think many are up to the same dirty tricks - just maybe not so blatent any more. A bit more creativity has been added to the process.


HEX

12-Aug-2004
4:03:39 PM

Get usta that !!!


nmonteith

12-Aug-2004
4:04:43 PM

On 12/08/2004 tasch wrote:
>Neil - just wondering if you have spoken to Aboriginal Heritage about
>these sites, or if you ask their advice about any sites that may be in
>question? I have a friend who works there who may be interested in your
>local knowledge...I can email you his contact details if you like.

I might take some photos of the art and get some GPS numbers to send to your friend when I get some time. I just need to find someone with a GPS now!


HEX

12-Aug-2004
4:13:47 PM

On 12/08/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>In many ways I would prefer not to talk to officialdom as they don't like
>me (alledgedly).

Neil --- ' they' will be licking your shoes if you can photo/GPS,record, all that --- defiantly worth the brownie-points...

There are 239 messages in this topic.