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Hardest Australian Trad Onsight


HEX

30-Jul-2004
3:23:52 PM

' One for the girls ' !!!

Monique Forestier '... the first person to onsight the entire The Totem Pole (25) , in Tasmania...'

Trad ?, Sport ? , Trad/Sport ? --- who cares--- it's a unique rock-climb ...

-----------------------------------

Good call, Cube-arse ! ................ not !


manacubus

30-Jul-2004
4:42:47 PM

Is it still onsight if you live with the guy who popularlised the route worldwide?

(evil grin)


nmonteith

30-Jul-2004
5:27:44 PM

yere - i was going to say that but i bit my tounge.

onsight

30-Jul-2004
11:23:08 PM

Oz climbing really shits me sometimes...

OK, so I suspect the comments were probably just meant in jest, so it's no great-big-deal. But you do realise that could be construed as sexist even? (Neil - didn't you lock a thread for something similar earlier today).

I did expect a lot more from you guys.

Lee. Neil. Monique asked me to pass on two words to you both: "up" and "yours".

ness

30-Jul-2004
11:32:18 PM

YEAH you big spazmo mcmorgan! What a dumb ass thing to say.


mousey

31-Jul-2004
12:32:08 AM

as tempting as it is to shake a finger, ive been known to 'cross the line' of appropriateness (is that a word?) on occasion...(ok, all the time)
------
onsight- hows the travel going? cant wait to see some of the stuff you've been up to....

ness- just to clear things up, what exactly is a 'big spazmo mcmorgan'?

mikl law

31-Jul-2004
6:32:19 AM

spazmo......It's code for Mikl climbing on a bad day.

I believe there are very few hard trad onsights anyway, and even less are first ascents. Then when you get to these, many of them aren't too bad. As we know well, trad does not equal bold. The few trad routes that are bold were a big mistake that turned out ok in the end.

The Bluff moutain routes weren't very bold (Kim aided the hard part to get gear in, a bit of an eye opener for me) Some of the Buffalo slabs were for the time, particularly No Holds Barred (hard rubber and a hand drill). Most of the Lindorff horrors. Tobin Sorenson did Aslan at Kaputar which sounds like the boldest onsight I've heard of. Many of things I've done with big bad bold numbers (Clawing wildly, 25) might drop a few grades on the repeat I suspect. Disco Biscuit was bold for the Blue Mountains, but the rock stayed solid (always the worry there) and we could have rapped off.

Almost any new route from the 60's was a lot more bold due to the terrible level of gear and the level of climbing. Leiben on Crater Bluff is a total poopy dacker with sticky boots, double ropes and a rack of cams. In sandshoes and pith helmets in midsummer it would have been somewhat memorable. John Fahey on Watchtower crack, Ann Pauligk on Resignation. More of the same. A blend of Ignorance and immortality is what is required.


maxots

31-Jul-2004
9:04:58 AM

On 30/07/2004 onsight wrote:
>Oz climbing really shits me sometimes...
>
>OK, so I suspect the comments were probably just meant in jest, so it's
>no great-big-deal.

ok cool, then you go on and try and get back at them. > being both righteous, and then immature in the same post doesn't quite work !

>I did expect a lot more from you guys.
>
>Lee. Neil. Monique asked me to pass on two words to you both: "up" and
>"yours".

And christ, the posts were

> Is it still onsight if you live with the guy who popularlised the route worldwide?
> (evil grin)
> yere - i was going to say that but i bit my tounge.
In what possible way could this be construed as sexist. If anything I guy would cop a straight "NO onsight, he got beta from his mate" instead of a freindly jest. Lee wrote (evil grin) at the end of his post, how much more in jest can you get

sorry for venting, it just seems theres this whole righteous "don't question us" crap surrounding the top climbers. Do you and monique sit around and bitch about it
S > "that monteith and Lee dudes, man they joked about whether it really was an onsight."
M > "oh shit, man, i'm insecure about that one, i mean he only explained the crux, thats what 5 percent of a climb, its still onsight for 95 %, like Simon, can you go and make a personal attack so I sound like a winging little girl, thanks bro"


mousey

31-Jul-2004
1:53:46 PM

>it just seems theres this whole righteous "don't question us" crap surrounding the top climbers

maybe that comes across to you through the climbing media but from the guys ive encountered they come across as being pretty open to opinoin, very able to talk about stuff...you have to understand though that they arent (and shouldnt have to) going to take it to heart when people who climb max. 1 or 2 days a week and some 15 grades lower start criticising them about their decisions (there is absolutely nothing wrong with climbing 1 or 2 days a week and rarely seeing the other side of gd 20ish- but 'us' taking 'them' up on their climbing is kinda like a long jumper telling a sprinter how to run...). while its valid for all of 'us' to have opinions its not wrong, IMHO, for them to reject those opinions.

>both righteous, and then immature in the same post

sorry i must have missed something...where exactly did Simons post become immature? its the same as above only reversed- Simon is entitled to his opinion and its not immatureto express that, whether you appreciate it or not....

>Lee. Neil. Monique asked me to pass on two words to you both: "up" and
>"yours".
am i the only one who found this amusing rather than offensive??

>M > "oh shit, man, i'm insecure about that one, i mean he only explained the crux, >thats what 5 percent of a climb, its still onsight for 95 %, like Simon, can you go and >make a personal attack so I sound like a winging little girl, thanks bro"

dude even if that is a troll, its still not cool to say shit like that. i mean as i said above, opinions are fine, you have to express them in a slightly socially acceptableway if you want to be accepted as slightly socially acceptable, as has been pointed out to me in the past (hey mate im not callin myself righteous)


HEX

31-Jul-2004
3:59:17 PM

On 31/07/2004 mikl law wrote:

>Almost any new route from the 60's was a lot more bold due to the terrible
>level of gear and the level of climbing. Leiben on Crater Bluff is a total
>poopy dacker with sticky boots, double ropes and a rack of cams. In sandshoes
>and pith helmets in midsummer it would have been somewhat memorable.

" Leiben ?! --- it's only 18 , but boy was I impressed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

( An awe-struck ,recounting-a-trip-up-north, Mark Moorhead , with in ear-shot of ' The HEX ' )...


maxots

31-Jul-2004
6:37:39 PM

> .you have to understand though that they
>arent (and shouldnt have to) going to take it to heart when people who
>climb max. 1 or 2 days a week and some 15 grades lower start criticising
>them about their decisions (there is absolutely nothing wrong with climbing
>1 or 2 days a week and rarely seeing the other side of gd 20ish- but 'us'
>taking 'them' up on their climbing is kinda like a long jumper telling
>a sprinter how to run...). while its valid for all of 'us' to have opinions
>its not wrong, IMHO, for them to reject those opinions.

ok, so basically i was having a tease because Onsight had seemingly (and its hard to read tone in typed posts) gone for lee and neil after what was obviouslyt a tease about the onsight. And i think its perfectly acceptable for me who climbs 2 days a week to question a claimed onsight ascent if the climber had beta. > I was not doing this however, I couldn't care less whether she climbed the totem pole onsight or not, all i thought was that it was silly that Onsight seemingly (and again, if I read the tone wrong i apologise) went for two guys and insinuated a sexist comment. And those who climb 2 days a week are 99% of climbers....we can and should question the acts of others (once again, im not questioning, i dont care about moniques totem pole FLASH > giggle)

>>both righteous, and then immature in the same post
>
>sorry i must have missed something...where exactly did Simons post become
>immature? its the same as above only reversed- Simon is entitled to his
>opinion and its not immatureto express that, whether you appreciate it
>or not....

perhaps i read the below comment in the wrong light.
>>Lee. Neil. Monique asked me to pass on two words to you both: "up" and
>>"yours".
I find it immature to say "up yours" in a generally agressive post in response to an obvious tease > if this was n jest, the post didn't seem that way

>>M > "oh shit, man, i'm insecure about that one, etc etc etc

>dude even if that is a troll, its still not cool to say shit like that.
>i mean as i said above, opinions are fine, you have to express them in
>a slightly socially acceptableway if you want to be accepted as slightly
>socially acceptable, as has been pointed out to me in the past (hey mate
>im not callin myself righteous)

oh relax, i was just having a go, its an internet forum, get over it. and get over it if any of you guys care that much about onsighting or not.....


mousey

31-Jul-2004
7:35:55 PM

> i was just having a go
well thats good to know :-)
>the post didn't seem that way
and thanks for keeping it at productive conversation level....

>And i think its perfectly acceptable for me who climbs 2 days a week to question a >claimed onsight ascent if the climber had beta.
very true- what i was referring to was your comment about the " 'dont question us' crap that surrounds top climbers". whether something is an onsight is *relatively* black&white but i assumed that your comment also encompassed the other crap that flies at them


maxots

31-Jul-2004
7:52:43 PM

all cool

very true- what i was referring to was your comment about the " 'dont question us' crap that surrounds top climbers". whether something is an onsight is *relatively* black&white but i assumed that your comment also encompassed the other crap that flies at them

yeah, most top climbers are fine, i thought more about what i menat there, and often its intermediate climbers at begginers too, its easy to get up yourself. (i had a go at a dude who claimed a new gd10 last weekend and wrote it up, but then, it was his first lead etc etc,> felt bad afterward. At least he had a go and had fun.....maybe cos the dude p'''s me off anyway > point being, god help my the day i get stupid enough to climb for anything other thn fun !!!

(and sorry if anyone took my comments more seriously than i meant them>>

mikl law

1-Aug-2004
1:20:58 AM

I think female climbers get a lot more scrutiny on the gleaming white purity of their ascents than the average Joe. And the routes they do seem to be more often up for a downgrading too. Public acceptance lags a few years behind their feats.

These days perhaps an onsight has to be something done with no knowledge apart from what exists in the public arena. Many harder routes are very well documented, and I don't think that should disqualify you. Videos?

A flash may be harder than an onsight if you've gotten innnapropriate beta. Of course "flash" can range from hearing someone say there's a small hold to rapping downand working every move and putting all the gear on.


mousey

1-Aug-2004
1:40:32 AM

i didnt realise that it was still a flash if you had worked the moves??
i call it a flash if i belay someone up it before me or something (even though, being the attentive belayer i am, im paying no attention to the moves), or if i know anything specific (ie. what type of hold/where not like 'small hold near top') other than what i can see from the ground before i start climbing. if ive rapped off and worked out what the moves are (only ever done when ive bolted something) but then id just put down FA so i wouldnt really know what to call it- while, strictly speaking, it is, id be hesitant to claim a flash just because i know so much beta (maybe a headpoint with the quality of my bolts!! :) )

mikl law

1-Aug-2004
7:41:56 AM

Indeed, the first ascent is generally the one with the most information, beta and practice the route will ever have. Why do think I can get my carcass up FA's and sweet FA otherwise?


HEX

1-Aug-2004
1:27:20 PM

Correct again ,Shade-master Mikl --- many ' spectacular ' first ascents have in fact been ' discretely' sieged, but then ' presented ' to the masses as a you-beaut onsight/flash/whatever...
HOWEVER , as much as 'aussies' luv to trash ' the pursuit of excellence ' ( and that might include 'hard' onsight/flash ascents), it is still very worth-while recognising, (but not necessarily celebrating---if you've got a 'top-climbers' hang-up) , significant ascents on the climbing-cultural rock-scape...

For many years , Johnthepom Allen's onsight/flash/first ascent ? of Tra-jing-ah Wall (24), Arapiles , was hailed as a bench-mark for etc,etc,etc...

onsight

1-Aug-2004
9:04:44 PM

Mighty Mouse: many thanks for taking the time, it’s much appreciated.

Before anyone else starts carrying on, I’d just like to point out to everyone that I actually happen to know both Lee and Neil personally, consider them to be mates, and actually have a hell of a lot of respect for them due to the exceptional selfless work they’re doing to put something significant back into that odd entity “Oz climbing”. I believe the comments were meant in jest, but as I’m sure they appreciate, if they’re going to dish it out then they can expect to have it dished out back in return – I thought that’s all I was doing. So relax everyone.

Sorry Lee, didn’t mean to imply that was sexist, I know how you feel about those issues, I was largely having a dig at Neil for his censorship earlier in the day (cause I believe that thread would have eventually self corrected).

Maxots: I appreciate that you wouldn’t have been aware of the above; but accusing someone of a personal attack and then attacking them personally, all in the same post, doesn’t really work either now does it? The problem with your initial post in this thread is that you’re making a whole lot of assumptions - and accusations - which actually have no basis in facts. Also, the fictional conversation you made up seems pretty personal and therefore isn’t appreciated. Anyway, you’ve apologised, I accept that, so let’s all move on…

On 31/07/2004 maxots wrote:
>it just seems theres this whole righteous "don't question
>us" crap surrounding the top climbers…
Actually, I agree entirely with the JIST of what you’re saying here. The way I see it is that if people are reporting “significant achievements” in the media then they have a obligation to ensure that they’ve got the facts straight — and aren’t misrepresented (as they sometimes are). Personally, I actually go to quite a lot of trouble to ensure all the news I report to the climbing media is factually correct.

Hex: Cheers mate. I always said you were a nice troll. That last (infamous) “everyone’s a winner” quote that you pulled out is a real ripper aint it! Those comments have always had me beat. How the hell he could have an issue with someone trying to readdress the “imbalance” has always baffled me.

Like I said, Oz climbing really shits me sometimes. People might eventually understand why.

Mikl: It was great catching up w you in France, we really enjoyed that. You’re a true gentleman and a diplomat. If they awarded Nobel (peace) prizes for contributions to Oz climbing, then you’d get my nomination.

On 1/08/2004 mikl law wrote:
>I think female climbers get a lot more scrutiny on the gleaming white purity
>of their ascents than the average Joe. And the routes they do seem to be
>more often up for a downgrading too. Public acceptance lags a few years
>behind their feats.

Immortal words folks.


mousey

1-Aug-2004
10:18:41 PM

n/p's
>how's your travel going?

also while i got ya, quick technical question....shooting on snow (using provia400f) should i meter off of the actual snow or off the subject? when i try meter off the snow then open up 1.5-2 stops i get great detail out of the snow but the subject is almost always too dark, but when i meter off the subject i get great blue skies and clear subject but the snow is hazy.... :-/


maxots

2-Aug-2004
7:53:31 AM

>Maxots: I appreciate that you wouldn’t have been aware of the above; but
>accusing someone of a personal attack and then attacking them personally,
>all in the same post, doesn’t really work either now does it?

ha ha, tousche (sp)

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