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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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2:04:58 PM |
There is a key piece of info missing Dino... what are you trying to photograph, and how did you come to decide that photographing from a tree would provide you with the best vantage point? For example, if you are wanting to photograph climbing in action, it is not necessarily best done from a tree, but from an abseil line or atop a nearby boulder. If you include info on what you're trying to photograph, people may have some interesting suggestions that DO NOT involve the use of prussiks that you might find helpful. Good luck! |
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5:10:23 PM |
excellent point jac, though i'd suggest that since he dosnt seem to be 'in touch' with climbing, he probably isnt taking photos of it (based on the old adage referencing turtle porn) | |||||
2:55:44 PM |
On 14/07/2004 Dino8943 wrote: >One of the techniques that seems well suited for my needs is using two >Pruisk knots as described here: Three prusiks can be easier than two, ie one for each foot and one for your harness. It spreads the weight a bit more and doesnt cinch the knots as tight which means less hassle loosening them to slide up (alternately). >Does anyone have any personal experiences using this method? Pros, Cons? A sling-wrap chest harness helps with not overbalancing and makes the prusiking a lot less tiring on the arms, if for no other reason than you can stop and rest more comfortably. The chest harness should be clipped to the waist attachment point on the waist sit-harness for better efficiency. >anything else I should condider? Yeah, getting down again! Practice in a controlled environment 1st. You would be surprised at how fine tuning the system will add to its efficiency. Practice using different prusik style knots. Some work much better than others depending on type and size (diameter) of the cord used. Generally 5mm cord on 11mm rope works best, but 6 or 7mm can be used OK with more 'wraps'. >Is it absolutely neccesary to use a slip knot for the foot support? It >seems to me that it would get very tight on you foot and be a hassle getting >it off? If you are using boots with a stiff sole its OK. If you are using soft type 'runners' then the slip knot (girth hitch) can crush your arches after a while. I find an extra wrap that goes around the back of the ankle to be advantageous (with boots), as it stops things loosening to the point of feet coming out of the loops. Tightening is not usually an issue but loosening due to your movements is! >anything else I should condider? Use a good quality kernmantle style rope (preferably static rope which stretches less), of sufficient strength, and make sure the anchor and anchor knot is bombproof. (Kernmantle is better than laid nylon as it won't tend to 'spiral' you; plus prusiks wrapped with the 'lay' of a older style (laid nylon) rope will not work unless they run against the 'grain') Use a clove hitch (on a locking gate type of karabiner) backup knot attached to the support point of the sit harness. Take out the slack periodically as you ascend. If your prusik system fails this will prevent you decking out. |
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8:04:05 AM |
>>That 'suit' is a pair of kevlar overalls, very expensive, but very expensive. >..sounds expensive i am a soloest an put my self in to lots of shitty places cost is not a isue when it comes to your life i have had lots of broken bones in my life an now at only 30 they all hert at some point in the year its shit trust me if a chain saw hits you then you will wish you had it my freinds dad does this work in the uk an he has had a few close calls an swears by the safety gear all i can say is be safe dont skimp on your life????? happy tree hugging mate |
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8:54:35 AM |
Ahhh John, I think it was a joke because he repeated "very expensive" by mistake. | |||||
9:16:46 AM |
sorry english mad man on the loose he ha ho ho click click not me mister | |||||
5:32:08 AM |
Thanks for all the replies everyone, With regards to the subject of my photography, I shoot a variety of different things but will mainly be shooting landscapes and wildlife while in the trees. The area I live is pretty flat (SW ontario Canada) Most of the time the highest vantage point is from a tree. If there were another option I would certainly try it. A5iswhereitsat - Thanks for the detailed reply! Using three pruisks sounds like a good Idea to me.. I'll definitly give it a shot. I have a few more things I need to pick up before I can actually test this out. But ill be sure to update you on my progress.. or hospitalization. ( ; Dino |
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10:59:34 AM |
Ok, had my first experience with climbing a rope today ( : Yeah Im still Alive! Basicaly I started of with some very low risk situations like climbing up a 10 ft high tree branch and then decending using the same 2 prusik knots.. Also practiced my repelling skills on a very slight slope and moved up in incraments to a vertical 25 ft branch. I learnt a lot today.. and thanks to this board I did it safely. Some things Im conidering for next time : 1.More prusik knots - I only had two, I think having a few extra would be a good Idea incase I drope one. 2. Another 50' 11mm cord - I learnt the hard way that once a knot is tight on a branch pretty much the only way to get it down is to undo the knot. I originaly thought that by tying an extra piece of rope to the main rope,(where it loops around the branch) I would be able to pull it loose.. but this wasnt the case, I had to cimlb back up the rope, straddle the branch and untie the knot... then jump down (luckily the branch was only about 15 ft).. but if it had been higher I would have had to cut my rope, So in using an extra 50' of rope I will be able to set everything up in a more manageable way. Im going to try tying the main anchor at ground level, then toss the rope around the branch. 3. GLOVES!!!!!!!! - Again learning things the hard way 4. More accessory rope - to pull up my camera gear and anything else, Im sure it will come in handy. Thanks again for helping me do this safely. Dino |
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11:14:03 AM |
On 17/07/2004 climbingjac wrote: >There is a key piece of info missing Dino... what are you trying to photograph, >and how did you come to decide that photographing from a tree would provide >you with the best vantage point? For example, if you are wanting to photograph >climbing in action, it is not necessarily best done from a tree, but from >an abseil line or atop a nearby boulder. > >If you include info on what you're trying to photograph, people may have >some interesting suggestions that DO NOT involve the use of prussiks that >you might find helpful. > >Good luck! He's interested in photographing hot chicks on hard sport routes |
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4:45:40 PM |
Now see dino here`s the thing about trying to learn stuff like this off the internet. You are finding out that there are a million and one things that are not said that are assumed that often get learned by watching someone experienced do it. The little things are the ones that will turn around and bite you. See, we jsut don`t know what you know or don`t know and what you`re ability to process the learning is or how practical you are. This is really too much for me mate, I can see a painful learning curve for you. I do very much hope that you are not injured along the way. Please I really must insist that you do not put into practice anything that you may have seen on this site. All that said, it`s good to see that you are still alive. It spooks me a little when I hear you saying that you`ve got a knotted rope around a tree branch. Here`s the thing, what sort of knot did you use, you see it`s all those little things that a competent instructor would pick up on and you can get his feedback to enable you to forge on ahead on the correct course. A lot of what we do is experiential and that sort of learning drills itself into your skull and is there forever, if you learn bad habits this way it is difficult to relearn the right way as it may in fact kill you before you learn the right way. Go buy a decent climbing book like those in the John Long series. This is not rock climbing by correspondence. Seek out someone around your neck of the woods as a mentor. |
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6:33:32 PM |
On 26/07/2004 phil box wrote: > Seek out someone around your neck of the woods as a mentor. ( and hope to hell that THEY know what they're doing...) Don't forget your bow & arrow plus 100 metres of string for getting your rope over those high branches... This thread would make a good sketch for The Goodies !!! |
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6:36:49 PM |
The film Deliverance had an interesting bow and arrow segment in it if I recall correctly ... Phil Box >See, we jsut don`t know what you know or don`t know and what you`re ability to >process the learning is or how practical you are. This is really too much for me mate, I >can see a painful learning curve for you. I do very much hope that you are not injured >along the way. Please I really must insist that you do not put into practice anything >that you may have seen on this site. I tend to agree with you Phil (about 80%), but think that there is room for 'common sense' appraisal of info (from any source) by the individual and then selective application of relevant bits in (preferably) controlled environments. I have perused sites to gain info and my reaction has ranged from; 'your kidding' ... through to 'that might work', ...depending on what I was looking at. Its hard to quantify, but all up I have gained a couple of useful bits of info and then adapted them to my needs to good effect. Likewise other info I have found after trialling, to be of no value. Most of what I have read in the pursuit of this knowledge was a waste of time, or I already knew it ... Even today, my aid climbing aspirations are still very much in the realm of 'get out there and learn by doing it' mode, but an analytical mind and a lengthy apprenticeship? in free climbing safely, help stand me in good stead ... I think it was Randy Leavitt* who said words to the effect, (when asked by a climber who did not consider themselves a novice, how he managed to put up long hard new routes in Yosemite), 'Start out small, do little walls then medium, then the big ones' The questioner said; 'but you did not do that' (knowing Randy just went straight into the deep end for success). & Randys reply was; "Yes, but I did not have to ask anyone how to do it 1st" (*I may have the wrong person quoted here. This vague memory is from one of John Long/John Middendorf 'How to climb Big Walls' books). Good luck to Dino8943 re his 'getting out there and doing it' ..., at least by asking he is getting half way clued, though I admit this could be a recipe for disaster (for some/many?). Phil >Please I really must insist that you do not put into practice anything >that you may have seen on this site. How does this equate to your contributions to the Tech Tips Section of this site?:) |
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4:55:40 PM |
I think its great that everyone naturally underestimates my ability to use "common sense". I do apreaciate everyones concern. However, there is a reason why Im doing this SLOWLY. I understand very well that my lack of experience and strong motivation is a dangerous combination. After my first experience doing this stuff last week, I can tell you that I apreaciate the danger involved even more now. I know that one mistake is all it takes.. and its easy to get distracted.. so Im gradualy learning to use the gear correctly at my own pace, I think thats the key here. Slowly and safely. Phil - The knot I used was a small noose with about 4 - 5 wraps.. a very strong knot, probably not the best choice however, next time I think ill simply past the rope through a figure eight (knot) and loop it that way. What do you think? Quote: "Please I really must insist that you do not put into practice anything that you may have seen on this site." - But why then is this information made availible? Is this basic information meant to be only for experienced climbers?.. who probably know it already? I have read the disclimer, I understand that the information I use is AT MY OWN RISK. All this worry over liability is not helpful at all, for me or for you. I wish there was some kind of waver I could sign to put you all at ease. I will definitly check out the John Long books you mentioned. Thanks! |
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5:10:49 PM |
Why don't u fix one end of the rope to a ground anchor and throw the rope over the tree branch and prussic up the other side? That woudl fix the knot problem wouldn't it? - or have i gotten all confused with what you are doing! | |||||
5:55:11 PM |
On 27/07/2004 Dino8943 wrote: >The knot I used was a small noose with about 4 - 5 wraps.. a very >strong knot, probably not the best choice however, next time I think ill >simply past the rope through a figure eight (knot) and loop it that way. >What do you think? A hangmans noose? -> a figure 8 hangmans noose ?? (oooh, sad choice ...) Not the knot I would use! Mainly because you have the potential for a load bearing rope to be running over itself with the inherent problems of friction burn; or in the case of a static loading, the rope diameter becoming the load bearing portion of the line involved, (rather than a 'tortional loading' along its length). You will/may also note from instructional books that the angles of loading increase the 'effective load on the system' markedly after about 60 degrees. The same principles apply here ... Figure 8's knots have been known to come undone. They are best tied with plenty of 'tail' and then a 'keeper' knot is tied in that tail back around the 'standing' part of the rope. All knots should be correctly 'dressed'. All knots 'weaken' the effective load bearing capacity of the rope; -> some knots more than others ... Nmonteiths suggestion is much more sensible. Just use a longer rope and anchor it to the base of the tree with a couple of wraps around the trunk (overlapping itself), finished off with a figure 8, or better yet a bowline (easier to tie and adjust afterwards if necessary). Note either knot should have a 'keeper knot' tied in the tail back to the standing part of the rope for redundancy. A suitable keeper knot would be half a 'fishermans knot'. Once the remaining length of rope is thrown up over the branch involved then the radius of that branch is much less severe on the system, than (say) relying on the radius of rope enclosing the working part of a line in a hangmans noose. By the way, ... how strong are the branches? Here in Australia some trees are notorious for 'dropping limbs' ... >I will definitly check out the John Long books you mentioned. Good. There are other books as well, but that would be a good start. 'Self Rescue' by Strausman? would be another good one to check out. --------------- Post edit 04-Aug'04 'Self Rescue' is by David J. Fasulo. Published by Globe Pequot Press (A Falcon Guide) ISBN 0-934641-97-8 $12.95 US |
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7:15:32 AM |
yea, I realize the noose wasnt a good choice. Thanks for the tip about tying a figure 8 with a "keeper knot" I will definitly try that next time Nmonteith , thats exactly what I had in mind. |
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11:44:04 AM |
Dino, sorry to have had to labour the point but I really did need you to tell us of your own free will that you were accepting all liability. I would hate to have the site held accountable for something you neglected to do because you failed to grasp a basic concept that should have been known if you were in a real life one on one situation. Now that all that is out of the way, I would use the friction hitch i/e 3 or 4 turns right the way around the tree with 3 or 4 half hitches and a double fishermans as a backup for the whole lot. That knot is never gunna come undone on its own but is the absolute strongest knot known and the easiest to get undone. The perfect anchor. Another way of getting the rope up and over the limb is to tie a weight onto a length of thin cordage. Chuck the weight up and over and then pull the rope over with the string. Another way of scaling trees is to simply use the tree as your rope and prussik up the tree using three lengths of sling material. Girth hitch the slings around the tree and alternatively sit in one of the slings as you adjust the foot sling up for another stroke. Use three so you are always attached by at least two slings while you adjust the other. Note that this method does not work on very large trees with rough bark, don`t ask me to tell you how I know that as it is too embarrassing to relate suffice to say that one should not blow ones own trumpet until one knows that a thing is able to be accomplished. |
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3:34:53 PM |
Ah; I see your point Phil. Very professional. |
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12:25:23 PM |
On 27/07/2004 Dino8943 wrote: >I think its great that everyone naturally underestimates my ability to >use "common sense". I do apreaciate everyones concern. Hi Dean, its not that anyone thinks you're lacking in common sense. Its more that many of the techniques have been carefully matured over decades through trial and error by thousands of climbers. Often its the one in a hundred chance that a particular technique will be dangerous compared to an alternative method that may save your life. So you are just being encouraged to "stand on the shoulders of past climbers". Ultimately, you take responsibility - but "ignorance is bliss" and if you start out scared instead of confident then you are more likely to search for that extra bit of info. I'm sure you'll come to a balance that you're comfortable with. Hope you get some nice photos. The other thing you could try is to hang your camera froma kite.....I've seen some good results from this. :) |
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9:50:12 AM |
A couple of lessons learned today and a few less layers of skin Basicaly I underestimated how strong my instinct to hang on was.. I was trying to down prusik from a high branch. I let go of the branch and the prusik knot didnt catch right away, I made the mistake of grabing the rope above the knot and sliding it down as I fell. Luckily my skin started to burn and I let go of the rope and the knot grabbed hold. I fell about 10 feet before It caught and was only 2-3 feet away from the figure 8 backup I had tied on the way up. How far apart should the backups figure 8's be? I tied 3 on the way up a 25' branch but had to untie one before I started to descend to avoid blocking the prusik knot. I was clipped on to the second figure eight when I fell.. but still my instinct was to grab the rope. From now on I think rapelling will be my main way down. Ill keep practising the prusik method just as a back up.. But when you first let go and that knot doesent catch right away.. you need to have nerves of steel not to grab on to the rope and let the knot do its job. Other than some pretty severe rope burn and nearly losing my lunch ( : I had a very educational day. Funny thing is.. I was wearing gloves... fingerless gloves! From now Ill be carrying one full fingered pair for descending. This climbing business is dangerous.. I wish someone had told me heh |
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