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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 71
Author
Guidebook: Grampians Climbing: Sport Crags
Wendy
12/04/2013
8:27:50 PM
I hate to say it Simey, but i didn't think Mr J was the best pitch of 25 in the country ...

stugang
12/04/2013
9:29:28 PM
Seems like the guidebook is mis-titled. It really should be "Grampians Crags with Sport Climbs".

As for best 25 in Australia - it is clearly Have a good Flight...so ahead of its time because it climbs like an awesome gym route, but was established in an era without gyms. Visionary, in the "Jardine inventing cams" kind of visionary way.


nmonteith
12/04/2013
10:03:16 PM
On 12/04/2013 simey wrote:
>How does your starring work

If first ascent = Simon Mentz - 1 star
One Day Hero
12/04/2013
11:08:30 PM
On 12/04/2013 Wendy wrote:
>I hate to say it Simey, but i didn't think Mr J was the best pitch of 25
>in the country ...

.........as you thrashed and grunted your way up on toprope, swearing that you'd never attempt to lead it? :D

I'd put Mr. J in among the best in the country. What else is as good at that grade?
prb
13/04/2013
12:46:12 AM
I nominate Endless Love at Moonarie as SA's best 25 (pity I can't get up it!)
simey
13/04/2013
8:56:31 AM
On 12/04/2013 Wendy wrote:
>I hate to say it Simey, but i didn't think Mr J was the best pitch of 25 in the country ...

So what grade 25 pitches would you put ahead of it? I recall Peter Croft onsighting both pitches and he thought it was the best route he had done in Australia (I do appreciate there have been a number of worthwhile routes added since then).

On 12/04/2013 Dave J wrote:
>On 12/04/2013 simey wrote:
>>You might need to explain to me Dave why this new route is so much better than Mr J.
>
>The climbing on Mr J is all broken up with big ledges.

Total exaggeration! The are no sit-down ledges. There are couple of places where you can milk rests, but that is all. I'm sure most grade 25 climbers aren't complaining about those shake-outs when they reach them!

> The top pitch of World Party or even the 1st pitch of 7th pillar are better more sustained pitches I think.

Just to get to the top pitch of World Party you need to climb a very bouldery and significantly harder pitch just to reach it (unless you decide to do Fisting Party as one massive pitch). As for Seventh Pillar LHV... well you ramble up the grade 16 start to a rest, climb the steep flake to a stance and jug which you can hang out on for hours and then you tackle the traverse. How does that differ to milking a couple of rests on Mr Joshua?

>Don't get me wrong...its not a terrible route by a long shot...but the competition is pretty stiff on that wall.

Mr J by the very fact that it goes to the top of the cliff at only grade 26 with bloody awesome climbing makes it pretty special. It is very onsightable and doesn't have the desperately bouldery cruxes that a lot of routes on Taipan have.

Grade 30+ routes will continue to be established on Taipan for a long time to come, but you won't find any more bottom to top routes up Taipan at a modest grade 25/26.


nmonteith
13/04/2013
9:11:55 AM
On 13/04/2013 simey wrote:
>On 12/04/2013 Wendy wrote:
>>I hate to say it Simey, but i didn't think Mr J was the best pitch of
>25 in the country ...
>
>So what grade 25 pitches would you put ahead of it? I recall Peter Croft
>onsighting both pitches and he thought it was the best route he had done
>in Australia (I do appreciate there have been a number of worthwhile routes
>added since then).

Seriously Simey? Are you that upset?

There is only a handful of routes with 4 stars in the guidebook. I wanted to keep that rating for the absolute very best, mainly to differentiate the routes on Taipan, as many of them get 3 stars. Sustained climbing with no ledges is a prerequisite for the 4th star. Archimedes Principle is 25 and gets 4 stars, the only 4 star route of that grade in the guide. As you should know a guidebook is subjective, this one was written by me. Your guide is written by you. Rather than flaming this (potentially) useful topic for Grampians guide updates, perhaps start a new thread called "best 25 in Oz"?
simey
13/04/2013
10:04:26 AM
On 13/04/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Seriously Simey? Are you that upset?

Given that you have adopted a four star system, I think I was just more surprised than anything that Mr Joshua (which is hard to beat in Australia) didn't get four stars.

>There is only a handful of routes with 4 stars in the guidebook. I wanted
>to keep that rating for the absolute very best, mainly to differentiate
>the routes on Taipan, as many of them get 3 stars. Sustained climbing with
>no ledges is a prerequisite for the 4th star.

What about Blimp? That offers sustained climbing with no ledges up a powerful line at only grade 20. The elitist starring that exists on harder routes is a wank. There is more time spent dogging those super hard routes on Taipan than climbing them.

>Archimedes Principle is 25 and gets 4 stars, the only 4 star route of that grade in the guide.

Well given given there are over 80 grade 25s in the book, it seems surprising that only one route deserves four stars and yet of the four grade 33s in the book, two of them get four stars (and on the same cliff).

And while we are talking about Archimedes Principle which is on Eureka Wall, I am a little surprised that Eureka Towers (just a little further up the hill) didn't get a mention, given that Return to Gariwerd (22) is possibly a four-star route given your criteria.


>As you should know a guidebook is subjective, this one was written by me.
>Your guide is written by you. Rather than flaming this (potentially) useful
>topic for Grampians guide updates, perhaps start a new thread called "best
>25 in Oz"?

Well this is a discussion directly related to your guidebook so it seems relevant to keep it on the same thread. I appreciate that guidebooks are subjective and that you being the author have the ultimate say. That doesn't mean I won't argue a different perspective. I welcome the differing opinions expressed to Glenn and I regarding our guides and that frequently leads to changes down the track.

But having said all that, I do think your guide looks great. I could nit-pick on other things, but overall the guide looks very user-friendly and inspiring. I have no doubt it will be popular.




nmonteith
13/04/2013
10:38:03 AM
On 13/04/2013 simey wrote:
>Given that you have adopted a four star system, I think I was just more
>surprised than anything that Mr Joshua (which is hard to beat in Australia)
>didn't get four stars.

We ummed and ahhed about the 4 star system right up to the day it was being sent to the printers! I would have certainly changed a few stars on many routes if we had time - as it's not inherently obvious what is 'out' until you have a fully made index - which didn't get made until the last minute. There is always edition 2! As with anything in a guidebook the information is a guide only - its not gospel.

>What about Blimp? That offers sustained climbing with no ledges up a powerful
>line at only grade 20. The elitist starring that exists on harder routes
>is a wank. There is more time spent dogging those super hard routes on
>Taipan than climbing them.

Blimp is quite sandy - and I can think of many many routes that are equal if not way better at American crags (there are stacks of Blimps in the Red River Gorge for example). I wanted to save the 4th star for routes that are like nothing else in the world - thus the reason Taipan gets a good percentage of those stars.

>And while we are talking about Archimedes Principle which is on Eureka
>Wall, I am a little surprised that Eureka Towers (just a little further
>up the hill) didn't get a mention, given that Return to Gariwerd (22) is
>possible a four-star route given your criteria.

It's a Select Crags guide - I wanted to include areas that contain many routes - not just one. It's a great route yes, but when I did it it it certainlyl didn't make a 4 star, best in the world kind of impression.

>Well this is a discussion directly related to your guidebook so it seems
>relevant to keep it on the same thread. I appreciate that guidebooks are
>subjective and that you being the author have the ultimate say. That doesn't
>mean I won't argue a different perspective. I welcome the differing opinions
>expressed to Glenn and I regarding our guides and that frequently leads
>to changes down the track.

Cool, I really do appreciate the feedback - but I just didn't want this to turn into pages of argument (again). Mr J is certainly borderline 4th star - but that opens up the world of a 5 star system which I deplore! :-)

>But having said all that, I do think your guide looks great. I could nit-pick
>on other things, but overall the guide looks very user-friendly and inspiring.
>I have no doubt it will be popular.

Thanks! My guide is really aimed to complement your fantastic guide. I deliberately kept out major trad mutlipitch cliffs as they are well covered in your guide, and there has been little new route activity on those areas.

P.s. please don't make me have to justify the stars allocated to the other 900+ routes in the guide!
One Day Hero
13/04/2013
11:26:46 AM
Seems silly to put Eureka Wall in and not add "up the hill is a frigging amazing 22, down the hill and left is a frigging amazing 23". Sounds like you might have gotten caught up in your definitions, Adam bolted the Pythagoras arete and that allowed you to add the whole crag, but Eureka Towers 10mins up the hill doesn't have a sport route so it was out?

Archimedes is 25 now, eh?

ajfclark
13/04/2013
12:14:14 PM
On 13/04/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Cool, I really do appreciate the feedback - but I just didn't want this to turn into pages of argument (again). Mr J is certainly borderline 4th star - but that opens up the world of a 5 star system which I deplore!

So it's 3 1/2 star? Are there half stars in your guide or do they all get rounded?
Gareth
13/04/2013
1:10:59 PM
Archimedes was always 25. The second pitch anyway. 3rd little pitch is 26.
Gareth
13/04/2013
1:23:26 PM
Neil, FWIW, I think 4th (or 5th) stars are a waste of time. I can see you point about absolute world class routes needing extra recognition but it's so subjective and there will never be consensus on which deserve what amount of stars. Especially when some routes have only had a few ascents.

So, feedback for next edition: Drop the extra stars back to three and maybe have a "Standout Routes" section in the front.

The guide is great by the way! Our copy has done the rounds and it starting to look dirty and dog-eared already!

nmonteith
13/04/2013
1:26:00 PM
On 13/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>Seems silly to put Eureka Wall in and not add "up the hill is a frigging
>amazing 22, down the hill and left is a frigging amazing 23". Sounds like
>you might have gotten caught up in your definitions, Adam bolted the Pythagoras
>arete and that allowed you to add the whole crag, but Eureka Towers 10mins
>up the hill doesn't have a sport route so it was out?
>
>Archimedes is 25 now, eh?

I should have put a disclaimer - I appreciate feedback from people who have actually read the guide! Go and read it, then come back and read your post above Damo. You'll see why I'm not bothering in a proper reply.
One Day Hero
13/04/2013
1:45:35 PM
On 13/04/2013 nmonteith wrote:

>I should have put a disclaimer - I appreciate feedback from people who
>have actually read the guide!

I couldn't be arsed going down to Mountain Designs. I assume from your smug reply that you put exactly that description of Return to Gariwerd and Sail Away in the book? :D

Hi Gareth, I didn't realise that the money pitch on Archimedes had always been 25, how embarrassing. It's as good as Mr. J for sure! How come you're not climbing on a nice day like today? I have an excuse.
One Day Hero
13/04/2013
1:48:59 PM
On 13/04/2013 simey wrote:

>Total exaggeration! The are no sit-down ledges. There are couple of places
>where you can milk rests, but that is all.

Sorry Simon, but Dave is right. I reckon you could turn around and sit down on the little pedestal thing after the first hard bit, and you can definitely lie down and have a snooze between the crux and the tricky top bit (well, normal sized people can anyway).

Still a brilliant route.
Dave J
13/04/2013
3:37:47 PM
At the risk of further derailing Neils thread...

I personally wouldn't put Mr J in the top 25% of routes on that wall and I think if you just went out and did a few more of the classics on Taipan you'd be in a better position to comment. Its true they're mostly not 25 but some walls just don't lend themselves to that particular grade (the best routes on Tiger wall aren't 25 either and if someone was banging on about Sunday Best being the best line on the wall because it was 25 when they hadnt gone and done any of the classic 8s and 10s it would be hard to take them seriously too).

Out of curiosity have you been back and actually done Mr J?
anthonycuskelly
13/04/2013
5:18:45 PM
On the stars front, I find it a bit pointless to have a 4-star system and not have any 4-star routes under grade 23, and only two under grade 26 (I think)... then 11 for 26-34. So, I'd agree with Gareth, and just drop the 4th star altogether. There seems to be a general skewing for stars as well, whereas (for example) the Araps guide seems to be a bit more even.

I find the colour coding for mixed/sport/trad to be useful. Now if someone could just come up with a comprehensive multi-volume Gramps guide, I'd pay a lot of money for that...
kp
13/04/2013
6:16:58 PM
On 13/04/2013 anthonycuskelly wrote:
>On the stars front, I find it a bit pointless to have a 4-star system and
>not have any 4-star routes under grade 23, and only two under grade 26
>(I think)... then 11 for 26-34. So, I'd agree with Gareth, and just drop
>the 4th star altogether. There seems to be a general skewing for stars
>as well, whereas (for example) the Araps guide seems to be a bit more even.
>
>I find the colour coding for mixed/sport/trad to be useful. Now if someone
>could just come up with a comprehensive multi-volume Gramps guide, I'd
>pay a lot of money for that...

I don't think this is due to the authors opinion rather the rock. I believe the gramps has amazing climbing in those grades. I doubt there is a 24 that can match serpentine, path of yin, eye of the tiger etc. great guide neil btw.....
Wendy
13/04/2013
6:32:30 PM
I know it's terribly unfashionable of me, but I don't rate the climbing on Taipan that much. That's at least partly due to most of the best routes being too hard for me, and those that aren't, being too reachy! But honestly, I think it's a stunning bit of rock. Looks great. I just don't like how it climbs that much. And Mr J is at the scrappy end of the wall, which just looks like a doggers chalk fest (well, it actually is a doggers chalkfest ...). The route wanders, it does have at least 2 sit/lie down rests. Hanging out on the belay ledge on it is rather cool though, but I suspect that most people don't get to appreciate that bit of the route these days cause they just lower off the first pitch.

Simey was recently overheard offering his wisdom in the cafe that being tall is an advantage on easier roues, but a disadvantage on harder routes. Maybe you need to revisit Taipan to reassess that statement, Simey! I'll give you that in most cases, there's a limit to tall being an advantage, and you've probably surpassed it, but I reckon 175-185cm has got a lot going for it and I'm struggling to think off routes where it might be a problem.

I don't think Blimp is sandy, Neil. I did it a lot last summer warming up for the Ogive and it's a fantastic pitch. As is Pathos (although i prefer Blimp) and Dagon's Temple. I hink the gramps has a lot of potential 4 star routes in the 19-22 range if you really wanted to get excited about 4 star systems. But I think I agree they are a little excessive. Not having seen the guidebook yet (when I am not sick as a dog, I'll run over to Phil's and get one. Actually, I should get someone to pick one up for me to keep me enterained), it does seem a little silly to reserve 4 stars for hard routes, and with some large portion of them being uber hard routes on Taipan, of which a few have barely had a second ascent. You could just say Taipain is a stunning wall and best if you can climb 29+ and happened to be generously endowed with reach. Or in Dave's case, power, determination and talent cause I can't really credit height. I was trying hard not to moan too much about how desperately reach everything on Taipan was, Then I was told Lyn Hill and Sylvia Fitzpatrick complained about it a lot too, and they were climbing way better than I ever was.

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