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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 7 of 8. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 152
Author
She sells sea shells - Point Perp

nmonteith
12/03/2013
8:16:19 AM
On 11/03/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>I also was of that impression, but I also understand that part of the
>deal that was worked out was that some of the new stuff would be retro-mixedified
>(ie superfluous bolts that are next to good gear placements would be taken
>out). Hopefully that's still the plan, otherwise it would seem like the
>compromise isn't being honoured.

My understanding is that when almost an entire pitch was anonymously debolted (roughly) that any compromise went out the door.

>Regarding bolt wars, consider the following.
>
>The following two actions are symmetric;
>
>a) Removing a trad route by (either partly or fully) retro-bolting it,
>b) Removing a sport route by (either partly or fully) de-bolting it.
>
>The only differences are that; (a) happens quite a lot, and (b) happens
>almost never. I think that doing a bit of (b) (maybe even just talking
>about it) might provide a bit of perspective and reflection in prospective
>bolters that maybe doing (a) isn't cool either.

I totally agree. I think this has actually been a reasonably positive outcome where sport bolters have realized that not everyone will agree with what they do. I just wish the debolters were a little more civil in their words and actions.

Macciza
12/03/2013
9:41:52 AM
Bit like the pot calling the kettle black . . .
TonyB
12/03/2013
10:18:27 AM
The bolting war is bound to eventually result in someone contacting NPWS or the Police and point out that a group is planning to endanger lives by chopping or partially chopping routes. The result will be that all climbing will be banned. I'm sure the NPWS would just love an excuse for more bans. Perhaps this is part of the choppers' Machiavellian plan ?
chalkischeap
12/03/2013
10:28:14 AM
Choppers are usually anonymous. It's a unilateral act much like bolting but without any kudos. The overzealous bolting is the source of the damage.

Also a bolt chopper will not usually be well equipped to do a clean job as it's not part of the day job.

I just keep a small hacksaw, spanner, hammer and glue in the car to fix the occasional indiscretion :)
rightarmbad
12/03/2013
12:03:05 PM
Posting from afar and without any knowledge of the route in question, is it not possible that the de-bolter intends to come back and clean up when they have more time?

Maybe all the bolts were cut because none were in a good position in regards to natural pro available and that it needs to have new bolt positions to create a mixed route that it should have been in the first place?

Drastic action seems to be the only action that rabid ring-bolters recognise, so this currency was created by them, the bolters.
The de-bolters are just trading in the only recognisable currency available.
Reasoning with them has long since proven to have failed, what else were they to do?

nmonteith
12/03/2013
12:21:03 PM
On 12/03/2013 rightarmbad wrote:
>Drastic action seems to be the only action that rabid ring-bolters recognise,
>so this currency was created by them, the bolters.
>The de-bolters are just trading in the only recognisable currency available.
>Reasoning with them has long since proven to have failed, what else were
>they to do?

I'm interested in how many reasoned discussions you have had with "rabid ringbolters" at the cliff - and how many of these routes you have actually climbed? Or is it just hypothetical internet discussions? A few weeks back we had a pretty good little discussion going at Point Perp with all the parties involved. Reasoning and compromise was certainly a possibility.
uwhp510
12/03/2013
12:26:45 PM
On 12/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>My understanding is that when almost an entire pitch was anonymously debolted
>(roughly) that any compromise went out the door.

That doesn't seem........... rational.
kieranl
12/03/2013
12:27:48 PM
On 12/03/2013 chalkischeap wrote:
>Choppers are usually anonymous. It's a unilateral act much like bolting
>but without any kudos. The overzealous bolting is the source of the damage.
>
>Also a bolt chopper will not usually be well equipped to do a clean job
>as it's not part of the day job.
>
>I just keep a small hacksaw, spanner, hammer and glue in the car to fix
>the occasional indiscretion :)
Speaking as a past chopper, this is complete BS.
Choppers remain anonymous if they're not prepared to take responsibility for their actions.
If you have any respect for the cliff you'll equip yourself to do the job properly. If you're trying to leave an ugly message for the bolter then you're just playing ego games. You cannot undrill the hole but you can at least return the cliff to as close to natural as possible. That's the best way to send the message.
A chop can be very hard to convert to a full removal later (as I know to my great regret).
One Day Hero
12/03/2013
12:29:37 PM
On 12/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>
>My understanding is that when almost an entire pitch was anonymously debolted
>(roughly) that any compromise went out the door.
>
Ah, I doubt that. That route was a clear retro of Beside the Seaside, it had to go. I was present when Rick was informed (politely) about this. Maybe there could have been a bit more consultation, but if you're going to get hung up on that, then you also ought to criticise the lack of consultation prior to the retrobolting.
>
>I totally agree. I think this has actually been a reasonably positive
>outcome where sport bolters have realized that not everyone will agree
>with what they do.

You talk about this as if the factions are unified, organised groups. Maybe the current crew of developers at The Point have come around. Soon enough though, another random dude with a drill will appear and start bolting the shit out of everything and no one will know who's doing it. Then what? Will I have to begin negotiating from scratch?

I think the current situation is a really good insight for the bolters as to how they treat people who don't want to see old mixed crags gridded. Rick and I came to an agreement, then some unknown person who isn't involved in that agreement came and chopped a route. This is how it goes for traddy folk all the time.

nmonteith
12/03/2013
12:41:03 PM
On 12/03/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>On 12/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>>My understanding is that when almost an entire pitch was anonymously
>debolted
>>(roughly) that any compromise went out the door.
>
>That doesn't seem........... rational.

The bolter spends a lot of time and money bolting a route. They put their name out in the public on the route description. They are at the crag almost every weekend because they are a local.

Then someone decides to just chop all the bolts secretly (and quickly) with an angle grinder. No attempt was made to talk to the original bolter in advance. No attempt was made to negotiate - and possibly even team up to remove the bolts together. If you remove bolts in daylight and with heaps of time to spare (because you're not sneaking around) then the job could be done well. Instead it was quick and nasty so there wasn't a "confrontation".

I respect Damo a lot more because he went public with his plans and put his name to them. He also did a great job of chopping the original bad bolts - I couldn't see any scarring whatsoever from the ground.

nmonteith
12/03/2013
12:47:54 PM
On 12/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>I think the current situation is a really good insight for the bolters
>as to how they treat people who don't want to see old mixed crags gridded.
>Rick and I came to an agreement, then some unknown person who isn't involved
>in that agreement came and chopped a route. This is how it goes for traddy
>folk all the time.

The difference is that a new route has a first ascent name attached to it. So it's easy to identify the 'offender'. That's not the case with the anonymous chopper.

But I do see your point...
uwhp510
12/03/2013
12:49:02 PM
On 12/03/2013 TonyB wrote:
>The bolting war is bound to eventually result in someone contacting NPWS
>or the Police and point out that a group is planning to endanger lives
>by chopping or partially chopping routes. The result will be that all
>climbing will be banned. I'm sure the NPWS would just love an excuse for
>more bans. Perhaps this is part of the choppers' Machiavellian plan ?

Right..... so I presume that it would be the bolters (whose routes are being chopped and who are upset that their lives are being somehow endangered by the lack of bolts, rather than their insistence to continue climbing despite the fact that the bolts are no-longer there and because they didn't bring the right gear to avoid needing to use them) who would then, (for some reason... perhaps out of spite...?!?) seek to have climbing banned altogether by dobbing to NPWS (despite the fact that Beecroft Peninsula is administered by the Navy, rather than NPWS) preventing both sport climbers and trad climbers alike from accessing PP, and that this would somehow be, not only the fault of but in fact the ultimate end goal of, the vast and all powerful bolt chopping conspiracy?

The good Dr
12/03/2013
12:57:16 PM
On 12/03/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>On 12/03/2013 TonyB wrote:
>>The bolting war is bound to eventually result in someone contacting NPWS
>>or the Police and point out that a group is planning to endanger lives
>>by chopping or partially chopping routes. The result will be that all
>>climbing will be banned. I'm sure the NPWS would just love an excuse
>for
>>more bans. Perhaps this is part of the choppers' Machiavellian plan
>?
>
>Right..... so I presume that it would be the bolters (whose routes are
>being chopped and who are upset that their lives are being somehow endangered
>by the lack of bolts, rather than their insistence to continue climbing
>despite the fact that the bolts are no-longer there and because they didn't
>bring the right gear to avoid needing to use them) who would then, (for
>some reason... perhaps out of spite...?!?) seek to have climbing banned
>altogether by dobbing to NPWS (despite the fact that Beecroft Peninsula
>is administered by the Navy, rather than NPWS) preventing both sport climbers
>and trad climbers alike from accessing PP, and that this would somehow
>be, not only the fault of but in fact the ultimate end goal of, the vast
>and all powerful bolt chopping conspiracy?

Finally a voice of reason who can see through the "plans within plans, wheels within wheels" machinations of the whole saga. In the end we will discover that all has been bone by one deranged individual who managed to throw a convoluted smoke screen around the whole saga with multiple thread entries as diversions but was given away by the faint taint of unchanged bong water.
One Day Hero
12/03/2013
1:15:19 PM
There is one thing about Chocky which is unfailingly reliable. If TonyB pipes up about something, it is invariably completely wrong. He's just operating in a bizarre parallel universe where reality is different and cause and effect have decoupled.

It'd almost be a let down now if he ever got it right :D
Chalkischeap
12/03/2013
1:41:54 PM
You are absolutely right Kieran that the chopper should do a clean job.

We can bicker on about details but mainly we need to look after the cliffs.

White Trash
3/04/2013
11:54:14 AM
On 8/03/2013 JMK wrote:
>Chopping the bolts on the boulder at buffalo counts as a victory? I would
>much prefer all the retro bolts added at nowra be chopped, particularly
>if they are near a crack. Now that would be a victory.

wernt the bolts on the buffalo boulder next to a crack?

i agree with that chop as bolting cracks is poor form an bolting bouders is no better.

Macciza
4/04/2013
4:25:56 PM
On 3/04/2013 White Trash wrote:
>i agree with that chop as bolting cracks is poor form an bolting bouders is no better.

Absolutely! What don't these people understand about 'Don't Ringbolt Tradclimbs!" . . !
TonyB
5/04/2013
7:46:40 AM
On 12/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>It'd almost be a let down now if he ever got it right :D

Our favourite gender challenged, kindergarten dropout doesn't realise that people don't own telephones. Easy to make a call to NPWS.

NPWS vs chopper:
Mr Ranger : "What are you doing walking in a National Park with bolt cutters and an angle grinder ?"
ODH: "These are to keep my toe nails pretty and I was hoping to grind with you boys."
uwhp510
5/04/2013
10:21:56 AM
On 5/04/2013 TonyB wrote:
>Our favourite gender challenged, kindergarten dropout doesn't realise
>that people don't own telephones. Easy to make a call to NPWS.

So...(?!?!?!?!)... are you saying that the telephones that virtually everyone carries around in their pockets, rather than being OWNED by their users, are actually on some kind of lease agreement? And ODH wrongly assumes that the phone users actually do OWN them, which for some reason makes phone calls to NPWS more difficult?

>NPWS vs chopper:
>Mr Ranger : "What are you doing walking in a National Park with bolt cutters
>and an angle grinder ?"
>ODH: "These are to keep my toe nails pretty and I was hoping
>to grind with you boys."

Also... a couple of other points;

Point Perp is not a national park, so calling NPWS is probably not going to be super effective and the least obtrusive way to remove ring bolts uses the exact same equipment that is used to put them in (ie a drill and glue to patch the hole). The "rangers" demonstrably don't freak out about people taking drills into national parks do they.

QED

Chloe
5/04/2013
2:40:02 PM
On 12/03/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>On 12/03/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>>I think the current situation is a really good insight for the bolters
>>as to how they treat people who don't want to see old mixed crags gridded.
>>Rick and I came to an agreement, then some unknown person who isn't involved
>>in that agreement came and chopped a route. This is how it goes for traddy
>>folk all the time.
>
>The difference is that a new route has a first ascent name attached to
>it. So it's easy to identify the 'offender'. That's not the case with the
>anonymous chopper.
>
>But I do see your point...

I am new to all the politics of this but from my reading of this thread the retrobolters don't seem to be named so there is more than one double standard applying here, and it would also seem that any new route bolter that bolts over old routes has no standards when it comes to doing their homework.

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There are 152 messages in this topic.

 

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