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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 42
Author
French grade our sport climbs
kieranl
11/02/2013
3:13:04 PM
On 11/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>Can somebody provide a short summary of Mikl's argument?
I think this thread is just another form of spam to get some more people to buy Rock so they can read Mikl's article..
Chalkischeap
11/02/2013
3:13:09 PM
All grading systems work just fine, add a grade if it's harder etc. The French sport grade tends to be used as a worldwide standard that reflects only the physical difficulty of the pitch.

As in : "I know it's 4x+ on the Martian head point scale but it would be only 7c+ French"
BA
12/02/2013
11:29:21 AM
I know it doesn't work like this but ...

'7c+' implies "7" grades that have been subdivided into "3" further grades as shown by the "a", "b", and "c" giving 21 grades so far. These either have a "+", "-" or "nothing" giving a further "3" grades, meaning a total of 63 grades in total (7x3x3). Grading something 8b+ gives 72 grades. Grading something 9c- gives 81 grades.

As I say, I know it doesn't work like this, (what would a 1a- grade represent?) but it does imply that a French "grade" is equal to less than one half of a "Ewbank" grade. Either that or you just accept that French grades are non-linear and depending about what end of the scale you are talking about determines the change in degree of difficulty of each grade.

As Ewbank wrote in his guide:

"The English grading system has been abused in Australia since 1951. Without discussing the why’s and wherefores, I shall try to explain the revolutionary system here. There is no “mild” or “hard” subdivisions. (e.g. “mild” severe, “hard” very difficult). No inferior or superior subdivisions (Dolomites system). e.g. 5 ‘Inf’. 6 ‘Sup’, No letters (S. Africa) e.g. El, E2, A, G. The 'Tarquitze Rock Decimal System' (U.S.A)
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5.1 to 5.10, 6.1 to 6.6.

My head is spinning already.This system is the simplest used so far, to my knowledge, in the world, It also has a chance of working. None of the others are doing so too well at present. This system starts, it has no finish. There are no sub-divisions. Each grade has its own separate number.

Grading takes the following into consideration. Technical difficulty, exposure, length, quality of rock, protection and other smaller factors. As these are more or less all related to each other, I have rejected the idea of 3 or 4 grades, i.e. one for exposure, one for technical difficulty, one for protection etc. Instead the climb is given its one general grading, and if any of the other factors is outstanding, this is stated verbally in the short introduction to that climb."

Like Ewbank (and Simey), I can see no valid reason for sub-divisions in grading at all.

Macciza
12/02/2013
12:02:15 PM
Perhaps people aren't seeing Mikl warped sense of humor in all this, the ultimate sand-bag at the most fundamental level - grading . . . Get them speaking French grades, that'll make 'em look like complete idiots . . .

But there could also be a subtle hidden reasoning to be pulled out and exploited at a later date . .
If a FrAu (FrenchAustralian Sport Grade - pronounced 'Frau' -like the German word for Married/Widowed Woman) 7a is 24, thats all well and good but then how do we deal with conversions to trad - given that your average sportclimber is a couple of grades behind on trad?

I reckon the difference is probably Au 3 grades i.e. A FrAu 24 spurt climber will only manage Au 21 trad.
So I will be able to claim my trad 21's as FrAu7a's and sandbags 24's as only 6b+ , excellent,. . . .

But I don't suppose 'Fun and Games' is an acceptable reason for changing grading systems . . .
martym
12/02/2013
12:23:42 PM
On 12/02/2013 BA wrote:
>I know it doesn't work like this but ...
>(what would a 1a- grade represent?)

tripping over the rope at the belay?

Snacks
12/02/2013
1:28:46 PM
In the spirit of making things more confusing, maybe there should be an Onsight Grade (No cleaning or tick marking) and a Redpoint grade...
uwhp510
12/02/2013
2:15:34 PM
I think the idea behind it is that (to loosely paraphrase Johnny Dawes) those who engage in "Bolted Rock Climbing" don't get confused and think that they are participating in the distinct activity of "Rock Climbing".

;)
kieranl
12/02/2013
2:18:29 PM
All mixed routes will have 3 grades.
First, the Ewbank one for Australians, Brits and US climbers who know how to place the gear.
Then a French one for the euros who can't place gear and only clip the fixed stuff. The French grade will also be paired with a British adjectival grade for seriousness to give the euros some idea how deadly it is relying only on the fixed gear.

Macciza
12/02/2013
2:55:37 PM
Actually I don't think 3 is a good idea . .
We could end up be accused of mass racial discrimination here . . .
But I think I may have a solution that should suit everyone is this modern age of non-discriminating inclusionary political correct play-safe climbing . . .,

We include everything - like they do on multi-lingual signs, the whole she-bang

ie My new route is likely to be 24/7a.11d6aE4VIII7IXb7+7c
It's the AEwFrBrUIFinSaxNorBraz System

The guide book description would be UsaFontBra and give you a break down of individual sections in the 3 main bouldering grading systems and clipping positions given in C ratings for how easy they are - should make it a lot more convenient that way . . .

So description might go something like V04III-C0, V15IVsup-C2, V0+4+IV-C1, V36AVI-C3, V04II-C1, V04III-C0.

Flow on effects would involve saving trees and thereby avoiding global warming etc because guide books would be far smaller
Eg
ClimbName 24/7a.11d6aE4VIII7IXb7+7c
V04III-C0, V15IVsup-C2, V0+4+IV-C1, V36AVI-C3, V04II-C1, V04III-C0.


OtherClimbName 24/7a.11d6aE4VIII7IXb7+7c
V04III-C0, V15IVsup-C2, V0+4+IV-C1, V36AVI-C3, V04II-C1, V04III-C0.

I think this takes Mikl suggestion to its logical conclusion, what do you all reckon . . .?
kieranl
12/02/2013
3:16:34 PM
You're in danger of over-simplifying it..
patto
12/02/2013
3:38:09 PM
While we are at it we should use the Yosemite Decimal System to grade out trad climbs. That way we can appropriately describe 4th, 3rd 2nd and 1st class terrain as well. Naturally mixed climbs should be a mix of YDS and French. It is simple really!

This all reminds me of the time my sister tried out climbing at a Sydney indoor gym. I asked her what grade she climbed and she proudly exclaimed "PURPLE"! :-D
martym
12/02/2013
4:07:08 PM
On 12/02/2013 patto wrote:
>This all reminds me of the time my sister tried out climbing at a Sydney
>indoor gym. I asked her what grade she climbed and she proudly exclaimed
>"PURPLE"! :-D

I saw a rating system for outdoor activities - the levels for Rock Climbing were something like:
1. Green climbs at the gym
2. Blue to yellow
3. Red climbs
4. Black climbs
5. Can climb outdoors
BA
12/02/2013
6:33:37 PM
On 12/02/2013 patto wrote:
>While we are at it we should use the Yosemite Decimal System to grade out
>trad climbs. That way we can appropriately describe 4th, 3rd 2nd and 1st
>class terrain as well.

I was thinking of mentioning the bastardised USA decimal system above.

How on earth can it be called a decimal system? Surely 5.15 is midway between 5.14 and 5.16 and they are all between 5.1 and 5.2. Five point one five exists between five point one and five point two, not after five point nine. When they got to 5.9 they went to 5.ten, why? Because they couldn't go to 6.0 as that refers to 'mountain' climbing and is the "logical" outcome of the 1st, 2nd, etc class terrain. Fifth class is rock climbing, sixth class is mountaineering. When they decided on 5.ten nobody was brave enough to go to 5.eleven so they went to 5.10a, 5.10b and turned that system into a non-linear system. There is a bigger difference between a 5.13 and a 5.14 than between a 5.6 and a 5.9.

Ewbank got it right nearly 50 years ago.

stugang
12/02/2013
7:44:15 PM
I don't have a problem with adopting French grades on sport climbs if that is the global norm, AS LONG AS the fcking frogs agree to speak english.
turtlespit
13/02/2013
9:18:27 AM
On 12/02/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:
>I don't have a problem with adopting French grades on sport climbs if that
>is the global norm, AS LONG AS the fcking frogs agree to speak english.

Keeping racism alive and well in Australia. Can I assume you're in the process of officially anglicising your name as 'Edward'?
dhunchak
13/02/2013
10:58:09 AM
On 12/02/2013 patto wrote:
>While we are at it we should use the Yosemite Decimal System to grade out
>trad climbs. That way we can appropriately describe 4th, 3rd 2nd and 1st
>class terrain as well.

I was thinking of mentioning the bastardised USA decimal system above.

How on earth can it be called a decimal system? Surely 5.15 is midway between 5.14 and 5.16 and they are all between 5.1 and 5.2. Five point one five exists between five point one and five point two, not after five point nine. When they got to 5.9 they went to 5.ten, why? Because they couldn't go to 6.0 as that refers to 'mountain' climbing and is the "logical" outcome of the 1st, 2nd, etc class terrain. Fifth class is rock climbing, sixth class is mountaineering. When they decided on 5.ten nobody was brave enough to go to 5.eleven so they went to 5.10a, 5.10b and turned that system into a non-linear system. There is a bigger difference between a 5.13 and a 5.14 than between a 5.6 and a 5.9.

Ewbank got it right nearly 50 years ago.





Keeping racism alive in Australia - "letters and numbers should not mix!" I take from your point above that you are not a big fan of chemistry (where letters and numbers freely intermingle - eg. Fe2+), but that you are a big fan of the TV show Letters and Numbers (where segregation is rigidly enforced.
One Day Hero
13/02/2013
11:13:53 AM
On 13/02/2013 dhunchak wrote:

>I take from your point above that you are a
>big fan of the TV show Letters and Numbers

Let's face it, Lily is the only reason most of us pay any attention to that show...........hottest nerd on tele by far!

martym
13/02/2013
12:31:14 PM
On 12/02/2013 Macciza wrote:
>Actually I don't think 3 is a good idea . .
>ie My new route is likely to be 24/7a.11d6aE4VIII7IXb7+7c
>It's the AEwFrBrUIFinSaxNorBraz System

So La Dura Dura would be:

38/9c+/5.15c/8aE(0)XII- ...12d

I got lost in Brazil.... what about South Africa?
dalai
13/02/2013
12:33:21 PM
South Africa is similar to the Ewbank just a grade or two higher - so 39 or 40.

Macciza
13/02/2013
10:12:03 PM
On 12/02/2013 kieranl wrote:
>You're in danger of over-simplifying it..

Yeah I know but that's what people want out of climbing these days - Convenience . . .

This conveniently allows you to cover all gradings in one system - it's almost perfect . . .
Almost , because I am still waiting for word back from NASA about the algorithm for localising it to your preferred primary system - they aren't sure if the maths actually works in such a non-linear, non-orthoganal multi-dimensional matrix . . . plus they still can't resolve the bouldering-style climb description, claiming that it's almost certainly in the realm of Heisenbergian Uncertainty! And that the more you know about it at the bouldering level, the less you know about it at the climbing level and vice versa . . .

But they lost me when they started talking about the 'real' and 'imaginary' parts of YDS and how you could do Furrier Analysis to convert to the aforementioned Linear Model, or via RectoLinear Regression you could approximate a French Transgression . . ..

They actually suggested I just use a Linear Numeric Transition Model but it seemed really complex - because it's essentially infinite(with a finite beginning) whilst also being finite(but without an actual beginning) . . ..

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There are 42 messages in this topic.

 

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