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Climb Quality - how do you rate it?


Big G

11-Sep-2012
2:52:17 PM

0 stars - OK
1 stars - fun
2 stars - heaps of fun
3 stars - heaps and heaps of fun?


nmonteith

11-Sep-2012
3:07:45 PM

On 11/09/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Note that Neil has forgotten about route length and rock quality..............why
>am I not surprised?

Your right Damo - that was an oversight!

Length = sustained and exposed for me. A 50m pitch is always better than a 20m pitch, but only if the rock quality is good for that length. Adding 20m of crud to the top of 15m of good climbing is a good way to minus stars. Maccas/Zacs recent controversial Perry's crack route is a case in point. The quality climbing is the first 20m - the 'extra' stuff at the end only detracts from a good line.


Macciza

11-Sep-2012
4:01:53 PM

On 11/09/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>Maccas/Zacs recent controversial Perry's crack route is a case in point.
>The quality climbing is the first 20m - the 'extra' stuff at the end only
>detracts from a good line.

Yes it would be great if it were all the same but it isn't.
So the extra stuff simply reminds you where you are
and that it is a 'whole package' and not a 'packaged commodity'
To put an artificial lower-off and avoid the top half detracts from the line
To accept the two ends of the spectrum and deal with them both makes it great . . .


The good Dr

11-Sep-2012
4:19:02 PM

John Sherman had it right (re Huesco).

1 star = good route
2 star = good route with a bad landing
3 star = good route with a bad landing first ascended by the guidebook author


shortman

11-Sep-2012
5:08:07 PM

Muldoon scared the sh*t out of me, so it was a great climb. Horn piece is a crap polished annoying climb Miguel75.

My experience seems to be always dictated by mood, and thus can have a quality day on easy manky rock, and a terrible day climbing at my limit on so called classic lines, and vice versa.

But really I'm an egotistical male whose finest 'quality' moments are always when I push myself passed what I could do before.

Anyway. Length, exposure and sequence of moves are my favourite elements to a climb.

One Day Hero

11-Sep-2012
5:10:58 PM

On 11/09/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>Your right Damo - that was an oversight!
>
>Length = sustained and exposed for me. A 50m pitch is always better than
>a 20m pitch, but only if the rock quality is good for that length.

However, a 200m route can be great even if all the individual 10m sections would be garbage on their own. The Warrumbungles is an excellent example of an area with crap rock, crap moves, crap pro, but brilliant climbing.


tnd

11-Sep-2012
5:15:08 PM

Muldoon is crap. So, for that matter, are star ratings. Why not eye the line off and make up your own mind rather than follow the guide book author's recommendations like sheep. Baaah! Baaah!


shortman

11-Sep-2012
5:28:23 PM

On 11/09/2012 tnd wrote:
>Muldoon is crap. So, for that matter, are star ratings. Why not eye the
>line off and make up your own mind rather than follow the guide book author's
>recommendations like sheep. Baaah! Baaah!

I agree. But I think today was about what people personally thought, not what you think other people should do.


Climboholic

11-Sep-2012
5:37:39 PM

On 11/09/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 11/09/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>Your right Damo - that was an oversight!
>>
>>Length = sustained and exposed for me. A 50m pitch is always better than
>>a 20m pitch, but only if the rock quality is good for that length.
>
>However, a 200m route can be great even if all the individual 10m sections
>would be garbage on their own. The Warrrumbungles is an excellent example
>of an area with crap rock, crap moves, crap pro, but brilliant climbing.

Bloody good point, well made!

PDRM

11-Sep-2012
6:14:03 PM

On 11/09/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>However, a 200m route can be great even if all the individual 10m sections
>would be garbage on their own. The Warrrumbungles is an excellent example
>of an area with crap rock, crap moves, crap pro, but brilliant climbing.

Love Bastion Buttress in this category! There is no 'route' or grade over this distance of trad wandering, you find your own way up from bottom to top.

P


Rocksinmyhead

11-Sep-2012
7:42:52 PM

On 11/09/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>
>Good point! How can a climb be "great" if the rock is shit, and you may
>as well be walking up stairs because all the moves are boring, and you
>may as well be soloing because the pro sucks? long climb or not!

I don't know - committment? Exposure? Makes up for a lot of crap.

Anyway, Quality is subjective, but it helps to assess with objective criteria.

E.g.

One star - I lead the climb.
Two star - I lead the climb, and didn't fall off.
Three star - I lead the climb, didn't fall off, but my partner did.


Miguel75

11-Sep-2012
8:02:54 PM

I'd love to have a route described either as 'choice eh bro!? or 'fully sick bro!?


shortman

11-Sep-2012
8:07:04 PM

On 11/09/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>On 11/09/2012 Rocksinmyhead wrote:
>>On 11/09/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>>>
>>>Good point! How can a climb be "great" if the rock is shit, and you
>may
>>>as well be walking up stairs because all the moves are boring, and you
>>>may as well be soloing because the pro sucks? long climb or not!
>>
>>I don't know - committment? Exposure? Makes up for a lot of crap.
>
>Fair enough things like position and exposure add to a climb, but do commitment
>and exposure make up for shit moves, shit pro, and shit rock? And as for
>commitment, just run it out.. or solo.
>>

Yes commitment is on it's own, no matter what angle you come from.

One Day Hero

11-Sep-2012
10:00:03 PM

On 11/09/2012 Cliff D wrote:
>You may
>as well be on a stairmaster because all the moves are boring, and you may
>as well be soloing because the pro sucks? Given that climbing is about
>moving; and good pro offers safety, what do you think makes climbs in the
>the 'Bungles so great that it could forego these other aspects of climbing?
>
I don't think your statement that "climbing is all about moving" is any sort of given, unless you're talking about gym climbing. Even then, gym climbing is all about moving and looking at boobies........mmmm, boobies.

There's a whole other approach to climbing which comes at it from the bushwalking/mountaineering side. From that perspective, there's no way you'd forgo proper summits, natural lines, position, scenery, wildlife, and good camping, just for "safety and movement".

One Day Hero

11-Sep-2012
10:06:30 PM

On 11/09/2012 tnd wrote:
>Muldoon is crap. So, for that matter, are star ratings. Why not eye the
>line off and make up your own mind rather than follow the guide book author's
>recommendations like sheep. Baaah! Baaah!

I'm with you on the star rating thing, tnd. Thought it was quite brave of the previous Pt. Perp guide authors to leave the stars out........shame the guide was a bit average.

You just don't seem to find totally crap routes at Araps though (as long as you stay away from Edwardo's poxy additions). Muldoon isn't crap, it just isn't any better than 50 other easy routes down there which don't get the same rave in the guidebook.


ChuckNorris

11-Sep-2012
11:46:15 PM

On 11/09/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 11/09/2012 tnd wrote:
>>Muldoon is crap. So, for that matter, are star ratings. Why not eye the
>>line off and make up your own mind rather than follow the guide book
>author's
>>recommendations like sheep. Baaah! Baaah!
>
>I'm with you on the star rating thing, tnd. Thought it was quite brave
>of the previous Pt. Perp guide authors to leave the stars out........shame
>the guide was a bit average.
>

that's bollocks. whats the problem with having a few stars chucked about to point out the better climbs in an area. Its all well and good to say "no stars" when you're a local and can work it out for yourself, but for a traveller or passerby its kind of handy and saves a lot of potentially wasted time.

You can hang shit on the guidebook writers as much as you want, but I think the problem is with the numpties who seem to be prevalent in climbing circles these days - who need a reproduction of purple on wall 7 in order to gain satisfaction.

FWIW - I reckon both Bard and Muldoon are stellar routes (in that order). I've done them both at least a dozen times and reckon that anyone who reckons otherwise is a dipshit.

One Day Hero

12-Sep-2012
12:46:29 AM

On 11/09/2012 stugang wrote:
>but for
>a traveller or passerby its kind of handy and saves a lot of potentially
>wasted time.

What saves time is not having to share your "classic" with 10 other parties.

>FWIW - I reckon both Bard and Muldoon are stellar routes (in that order).
>I've done them both at least a dozen times and reckon that anyone who reckons
>otherwise is a dipshit.
>
Well I reckon otherwise. So what does that make me? (I do have a bit of a soft spot for Bard though)

Olbert

12-Sep-2012
2:49:57 AM

There are so many different factors that go into climb quality and none of them are mandatory. Some good routes have good gear, length, exposure, moves, setting, pleasant holds, sustained, consistent, fun, scary, funky, different and a bunch more that I can't think of. Climbs can be good with just one of these and can be terrible with all of them.

Aidan

12-Sep-2012
7:44:02 AM

On 12/09/2012 Cliff D wrote:

RE Agamemnon "I mean where in the world can you get on a 5.4/10 and be in those positions?"

Where in the world can you safely climb grade 14 overhangs on trad? (Muldoon)

When I first climbed it I was a full of myself grade 23 sport climber (still am) and it made me poo my pants. Even though I didn't particularly enjoy it at the time it remains in my head as a brilliant climb because of the fact that it provided that experience for me.

Nick Clow

12-Sep-2012
8:34:24 AM

Kieran

In response to your original post (given the thread seems to be going the usual way), I have always found the star 'system' very relevant not just to the quality, but also the grade of the climb.

The number of stars is very probably going to be indicative of the solidity or sustainedness (for want of a better word) of the route at its grade. In other words, a 3 star 22 is going to have more grade 22 climbing on it than a 1 star 22.

If you talk to someone like Bryden Allen, the stars are a very important component of the grade. You should get on a 3 star climb and expect it to be solid, 'full value', the top of its grade.

With this in mind, I get irritated when three star 'classics' get upgraded in new guidebooks, e.g.
* Black Light (upgraded to 22 in Andy Martin's Frog guidebook) has been one of the definitive 3 star 21s at the crag since the 70s and should always remain so.
* Catch the Wind (upgraded to 22 in Simon Carter's guidebook) has been one of the definitive 3 star 21s in the mountains since the 70s and should always remain so.

I am not sure when the 3 star 'system' first appeared in a guidebook, but it might have been Bede Harrington's seminal Upper Blue Mountains guidebook? This guidebook certainly introduced the symbols of a hand and skull and crossbones (analagous to R and X).

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