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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 249
Author
wood fires at Arapiles
One Day Hero
9/06/2011
9:42:06 AM
On 9/06/2011 tnd wrote:
>
>However, the recently posted video reveals you to be a four-eyed, bucket-hat
>wearing nerd and explains why you over compensate so much with your aggressive
>verbiage.

Really? I haven't checked the vegemite site in a couple of days, has the Red Rocks adventure been posted up?

ajfclark
9/06/2011
10:09:50 AM
It's in the Climbing Videos thread: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=101452
bne
9/06/2011
10:14:34 AM
I propose banning fires everyday apart from weekends and public holidays. It is the same number of days as a 3 month ban and equally logical. And more people will be happy.
One Day Hero
9/06/2011
10:18:13 AM
Sweet! Nice film work by Gareth and Simey. Its funny, Red Rocks is actually quite steep but looks a bit slabby in the video. Great crag to check out for anyone who is visiting canberra and has half a day to get out. Massive suntrap on winter mornings, shady with a river on summer arvos, gr16-25.....2km from the suburbs.

Eduardo Slabofvic
9/06/2011
10:31:07 AM
On 9/06/2011 tnd wrote:
>On 8/06/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>>...Thank god I'm not a useless, snail-paced, geriatric old coot....
>
>However, the recently posted video reveals you to be a four-eyed, bucket-hat
>wearing nerd and explains why you over compensate so much with your aggressive
>verbiage.

Yes. It explains a lot.

jezza
9/06/2011
11:25:05 AM
On 9/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Collect your evidence to back up your view and see where it goes.

I think that's a good point. What is the evidence that camper's wood collecting has actually affected the environment at Arapiles? What about the evidence that banning fires would 'help' the environment at Arapiles?

I'm not talking about general statements like 'It's been shown that collecting wood disturbs creatures' habitats'. I'm talking about 'Wood collection within 10m of the Pines campground has been shown to affect species X & Y'. And 'When fires were banned during months A & B at Arapiles campgrounds, the following positive effects on the environment were seen to occur.....'

I'm asking because, without some evidence, I don't trust that there's a causal link. I suspect that bush bashing, and unnecessary accumulation of paths over the years, have caused a greater environmental impact than wood gathering, and that, relatively speaking, wood gathering is insignificant. I also suspect that the amount of rainfall has a vastly greater impact on the environment than wood gathering. As a result, we _could_ be focusing on controlling runoff, and the effect of water on roads, rather than being concerned about fires.

On 8/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I didn't realise there was such a market for sex tourism at Arapiles, Simey.

Really?

jezza
9/06/2011
11:37:36 AM
On 8/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>And the AAC do lots of good things for Arapiles too that everyone is taking
>advantage off - if you really care about the place, jump in and volunteer
>in some way. Tracy or Lou will always have ideas for things that need
>to be done.

Is the ring road still full of pot holes, and are people still driving around the 'road closed' signs? That's doing some real damage. I volunteer to help fix the ring road. I reckon with a group of 5 volunteers and a truck full of sand and gravel it could be done in a day.

I was there at Easter, and I heard that we 'weren't allowed' to help with the road. Instead, people were hauling rocks up the Pharos gulley again.
Access T CliffCare
9/06/2011
1:02:12 PM
On 9/06/2011 jezza wrote:
>On 8/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>And the AAC do lots of good things for Arapiles too that everyone is
>taking
>>advantage off - if you really care about the place, jump in and volunteer
>>in some way. Tracy or Lou will always have ideas for things that need
>>to be done.
>
>Is the ring road still full of pot holes, and are people still driving
>around the 'road closed' signs? That's doing some real damage. I volunteer
>to help fix the ring road. I reckon with a group of 5 volunteers and a
>truck full of sand and gravel it could be done in a day.
>
>I was there at Easter, and I heard that we 'weren't allowed' to help with
>the road. Instead, people were hauling rocks up the Pharos gulley again.

Couldn't help jumping in here. On the above comment. Couple of things jumping out at me.

As I have mentioned myself, Wendy and various others and yourself ' are people still driving around the road closed signs'. Yes they are, which goes to show that huge arse signs don't work for everyone.
I actually asked Peter the Head Ranger to originally change the sign that he had there which said Detour and had an arrow on it(it was the only sign he had and stuck it across the road) to a Road Closed sign in the hope that those who may have been a little confused would then get it. Sounds simple as, but he still had to hunt one down. They don't have a budget to go out and buy them and they don't have a stock of them.
Anyway, the detour one was replaced. Did it help - hmmmm, I don't think so judging by the amount of people driving around it at Easter .

With regards to fixing the road, yes it is a different process because it is a road. They also don't have a budget to buy the materials. So, even if it could be done with volunteers, what would need to be done first is for someone to decide to take it on as a proper project. Raise the funds to purchase the materials (which let me tell you is a difficult, difficult job whether you are asking people for donations or applying for funding) I also think that your estimate of a few people, a day and some sand and gravel is far from realistic.

Its really interesting that you bring up the Pharos Gully project which has/is being done because of the severe erosion from predominantly climbers traffic.If it had continued on as it was, who knows that track would have stood a good chance of being closed. We decided to start work before it got to that point. Everyone uses that track and I have run endless working bees but the amount of people that have actually helped out is really disappointing to say the least.
Half of those working bees have gone ahead because of the same old faces that I am sure help out because they know the project would grind to a halt if they didn't. The Easter turnout(and thanks to all who did help) was not a good turnout and we only managed to get a few rocks up the track for Walter to work on.
There was a working bee on the Sat morning to prevent runoff(more of the work you say should be done). Nobody turned up. I took some people off from the Sunday work bee to help Louise and Sheepy do this. The Pharos Project is what it is - a separate project that takes heaps of work and ongoing work to raise funds and get the word out, organize stonemasons etc.And just as, and I would think, more important than a closed road which only needs to be used if you can't be bothered walking to the cliff area you want to climb at. I find this a pointless comparison and actually a bit sad.

I should probably have started a separate thread called Traceys rant but you had to know Jeremy that I would leap in to comment about that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think the longer no campfire is the best or the only option to do, but peoples actions will often determine the kind of workload and budget that someone has to work with to have a successful project work. Possibly instead of disagreeing with the no firewood collection rule and campfires in designated spots(these are across the board Park rules and not just Arapiles) someone could take it on board about how to manage the overabundance of campfires and something such as wood for sale project that allows you to work with the rules in place. But it will require time, effort both now and ongoing for it to work. Parks will not do this, they have neither the budget, staff, time or inclination.

Rant over
One Day Hero
9/06/2011
1:57:54 PM
Hmmm, I reckon this rule sucks balls. You want to stop wood collection so you ban it, people don't comply so you ban fires, people won't comply so you ban camping, people won't comply so you ban climbing...................I reckon that some of the Nati climbers will give full support to the bans, right up to the last stage (which is the only one that would actually affect locals)

People are talking as if fire circles in the pines are an environmental tragedy........piss off! It's a campground planted with non-native trees, a few firepits scattered round the place has bugger all environmental impact.

I also don't reckon the Pharos Gully track was in terrible condition, maybe a couple of steep spots were in need of attention............seems like logs and star pickets would have been way cheaper and quicker than what's being done. I hope that all the gully hardening isn't a political move to show "climber investment in the park". That sort of thinking just shits me to tears.

What's really needed at Araps after the wet summer is a concerted effort at defoliating the routes! Heaps of classic climbs are getting reclaimed by vegetation. Get out there and do your bit for climbing folks, if everyone plucks one shrub per pitch it'll be clean again in no time :)

RNM
9/06/2011
3:33:01 PM
Worrying that this has the potential to turn against all the people that have been selflessly working hard to help preserve Araps.

Tracey I reckon the work you are doing is great. Likewise all the trees being planted, weed eradication etc etc. The list goes on.

I think the proposed ban is a bad idea.

In itself it seems it will be ineffective.

I think the lack of a response from Louise et al, is a real shame. Seems there is a lot of energy here that could be harnessed (I can hear you laughing already!). Shame to lose the support of the general climbing community too.

Likewise, what are all the armchair critics planning to do? Jezza, when will you be heading down to fix that road out of interest... can't imagine anyone will be stopping you.
Wendy
9/06/2011
11:27:45 PM
Simey, I am not talking about isolated incidents! Everytime I go climbing (which you know is rather a lot) I see piles of poo and rubbish at Araps. A lot more than I saw 20 years ago. There are at least 6 fire scars in the car park at the top right of the pines and several by the bins. Although why anyone wants to camp by the bins is beyond me. Many, many people are driving down the road and creating diversions around the old road - just look at the cars at the Pharos or Watchtower on a given day. Except maybe not at the moment because it's bloody miserable which is why I'm not there either. I will point out that some locals are also guilty of this one and I've given them an earful too.

The point everyone seems to be missing in this is sort of like basic parenting. You have rules to abide. You break them. There are consequences. This is a pretty logical consequence. It's a step up on the next consequence - no fires at all. Which is also a fairly common campsite rule. Yes it sucks. I even agree that it doesn't necessarily fix the problem and that people will just ignore this ban as well. But what do you do? I would be really happy that we didn't need to jump on people like they were little children, but too many people are acting like little children. All these people that are looking after the place might have to start pressuring the people that aren't. If there's only a few of them, it shouldn't be an issue. Go for it. Quick and easy.

And ODH - too much alcohol must have damaged your memory! That path was stuffed! It was a massively eroded, widening pile of dust that had shitloads of traffic - walkers, people descending from the Pinnancle Faces and those climbing in the gully. Other paths in that gully are similarly trashed. The path up Major Mitchell gully is too. Parts of Organ Pipes gully and Central gully need repair. There's enough track work to keep you occupied with those stakes and planks for a while, feel free to get started!

And your argument about the slope to closing climbing works equally well from the other perspective (i think i made that argument earlier)- so we need to demonstrate that we are able to manage our impact sustainably in order to maintain access.

It is a reality that we live in a world of regulation and nanny statism. If we work with what we have now, we can avoid more of it. If we don't, we get more. It's bloody simple really. Consider this an opportunity to demonstrate that we can work with the system as is and don't need any more regulation. This might involve doing something more than ranting on Chockstone.

jezza
9/06/2011
11:35:36 PM
On 9/06/2011 RNM wrote:
>Likewise, what are all the armchair critics planning to do? Jezza, when
>will you be heading down to fix that road out of interest... can't imagine
>anyone will be stopping you.

Says the armchair critic's critic, direct from his/her armchair. I am planning on being there this weekend. What about you? However, there's absolutely no way I'm doing anything to that road without
- permission from the group that owns the road
- a group of about 10 people
- a truck full of sand and gravel
- tools

I don't volunteer to organise these things. I think that should be done by someone who represents climbers to Parks and has the right contacts. I _do_ volunteer to work on it for a day, and I stand by that. I don't like walking 45 minutes from the pines to the watchtower faces.

Otherwise, there's always more rocks to haul up the gulley.

On 9/06/2011 RNM wrote:
>Worrying that this has the potential to turn against all the people that have been selflessly working hard to help preserve Araps.

I really don't think anyone's turning against those people, are they?

jezza
9/06/2011
11:57:58 PM
On 9/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Everytime I go climbing
>(which you know is rather a lot) I see piles of poo and rubbish at Araps.
That's disgusting. Where have you seen these poo piles? How high is the poo being piled? I haven't seen any poo piles myself, but let me tell you, if I catch someone placing poo into a poo pile, I'll be pulling them aside, and putting a piece of said poo in their pie-hole, pronto.

>
>The point everyone seems to be missing in this is sort of like basic parenting.
> You have rules to abide. You break them. There are consequences. This
>is a pretty logical consequence.

Well, I actually _am_ a parent and I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Sure, you can make arbitrary, unfair rules, and, if your kids break 'em, you can enforce arbitrary, unfair consequences. But that's poor parenting, and I think it's also the problem with the AAC's recommendation. Good parenting involves compromise, with rules that make sense to both parties (albeit begrudgingly), and consequences that are fair, and that help steer the kids back in the right direction.
Wendy
10/06/2011
12:07:45 AM
It only takes one poo to make a pile! Usually decorated liberally with loo paper and then ceremoniously marked by a rock or 2. Have a look down the bushes at the side of the pines and you'll find a few.

And further restrictions on fire is not an arbitary consequence for failing to follow current fire restrictions. It's quite directly related, and indeed, the very logical consequence would be to go straight to no fires at all, remove all the fire pits and fine anyone having a fire. Think of this as an opportunity to intervene before that.

And while I'm at it, I might also point out that there are generally 3 groups of people I see doing voluntary work at the mount - locals (I admit, generally the same group of locals each time), school groups organised mostly by Louise and the VCC.

jezza
10/06/2011
12:28:14 AM
No, you haven't stated the rule, or the consequence. I think you've taken your disgust with poo piling (and general naughtiness by campers), and applied it to this situation. Here's what Louise said

'This week the Arapiles Advisory Committee recommended that Parks Victoria reduce wood fuel campfires at Arapiles to 3 months annually: June to August. Previously wood fuel campfires were allowed for 6 months from May to October. The decision was made after 6 months of deliberation, and after hearing a submission from Parks Victoria on biodiversity values on public land. Parks Victoria officers pointed out to the committee that every scientific study cites a direct correlation between fallen wood on the ground with increased biodiversity. In a small park like Arapiles (1000 acres), firewood gathering has an enormous impact on biodiversity - birds, reptiles, invertebrates and flora. '

There's nothing in the above about 'failing to follow current fire restrictions'. In fact, the 'further restrictions on fire' is the consequence of a purported impact on biodiversity.

The 'rule' (let's not screw up Arapiles) is fair. However, I don't know that we've broken that rule from wood gathering. I'd like to see some evidence that we've gathered so much wood that we've affected biodiversity. Even if we have done so, the 'consequence' (let's ban fires some more) isn't fair. Other possibilities might be
- let's patrol occasionally and tell people that they shouldn't have gathered that wood
- let's fine people who gather wood
- let's make doubly sure that people _know_ they aren't supposed to gather wood
- let's sell people wood
-
simey
10/06/2011
12:48:43 AM
On 9/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
>It is a reality that we live in a world of regulation and nanny statism.

You are obviously accepting of regulation and nanny statism. I don't agree with a lot of your views or share your opinion regarding the state of the park. Your comments that everytime you go climbing you see piles of poo and rubbish is nonsense. I have been climbing with you on a number of occasions and I don't recall seeing any piles of poo and rubbish during those days.

Your notion that if every single person does the right thing, then we won't be hit by further regulation is pure speculation. Campers have abided by the six month ban, the park looks better than ever and yet we are now presented with a further three months of fire bans. You bring up a whole lot of unrelated incidents and try and argue that because of this that an increase in the fire ban is perfectly reasonable. Your tone is patronising.

Over zealous environmentalism is the reason behind this latest ban. And the people most behind it are the ones who happen to be jetting to warmer climates during the winter months.
Wendy
10/06/2011
4:08:59 AM
I've got nothing to do with proposing the ban SImey, you can go and ask Lou about it if you want more info. I just happen to think it's not unreasonable.
Wendy
10/06/2011
4:20:50 AM
On 10/06/2011 jezza wrote:
>No, you haven't stated the rule, or the consequence. I think you've taken
>your disgust with poo piling (and general naughtiness by campers), and
>applied it to this situation. Here's what Louise said
>

Actually, i did, right at the start. Where i pointed out that firewood collection in the park was banned. Had been for ages. And that fires were restricted to fire pits. And may to november. Given that all three of these fire regulations are being breached, the logical consequence is that fire priviledges will be revoked. In what way does that not make sense? Imagine you give your child a toy bat. You explain to them that it's not ok to beat their little sister with the bat. They use the toy to beat up their little sister. You take away the toy because they can't use it responsibly.


>'This week the Arapiles Advisory Committee recommended that Parks Victoria
>reduce wood fuel campfires at Arapiles to 3 months annually: June to August.
>Previously wood fuel campfires were allowed for 6 months from May to October.
>The decision was made after 6 months of deliberation, and after hearing
>a submission from Parks Victoria on biodiversity values on public land.
>Parks Victoria officers pointed out to the committee that every scientific
>study cites a direct correlation between fallen wood on the ground with
>increased biodiversity. In a small park like Arapiles (1000 acres), firewood
>gathering has an enormous impact on biodiversity - birds, reptiles, invertebrates
>and flora. '
>
>There's nothing in the above about 'failing to follow current fire restrictions'.
> In fact, the 'further restrictions on fire' is the consequence of a purported
>impact on biodiversity.
>
>The 'rule' (let's not screw up Arapiles) is fair. However, I don't know
>that we've broken that rule from wood gathering. I'd like to see some
>evidence that we've gathered so much wood that we've affected biodiversity.
> Even if we have done so, the 'consequence' (let's ban fires some more)
>isn't fair.

In what way is it not fair? It is a priviledge to have a campfire. In most of southwest tassie, it's a fuel stove only area. Araps could always have been declared that too.

Other possibilities might be
> - let's patrol occasionally and tell people that they shouldn't have
>gathered that wood

Feel free to do so. That's what demonstrating responsibly self regulation is.

> - let's fine people who gather wood

well, we can't and PV don't have the staff.

> - let's make doubly sure that people _know_ they aren't supposed to gather
>wood

Great idea, feel free to spread the word and create some new signs.

> - let's sell people wood
> -
Go for your life. It's probably illegal to run a business in the park, but others have done little mini businesses before you.

Doug
10/06/2011
7:16:10 AM
>In what way is it not fair? It is a priviledge to have a campfire. In
>most of southwest tassie, it's a fuel stove only area. Araps could always
>have been declared that too.
Unfortunately, too many people seem to think that, when they have had something for a while and it is taken away, they have lost a "right" rather than a privilege. If you think of a right as being akin to a "NEED" a privilege as being more like a luxury, then you might start to get it. In the case of a luxury, the notion of "fair" doesn't really come into it. Life just isn't "fair". Get over it.
And it's not just SW Tassie that is a fuel stove only area. Year after year we used to luxuriate in rocking up to Whitewater Wall in Freycinet National Park for the weekend, set up camp and light a fire. That, combined with the cliff-top camping, was giving the area a real beating. Since the fuel stove only restriction came in, the "high road" closed and camping brought down off the cliff-top, the place has rebounded magnificently.
While I am not advocating a total fire ban at Arapiles, I can see it happening if people don't start to get it. Unfortunately, it's not just climbers who proliferate the problem with open fires. When we were camped in the North Camp a group of two or three families rocked up in cars plastered with Greens stickers, with their own trailer load of firewood in tow. They proceeded to set up camp almost on top of the sign letting people know that they were in a fire-free area, built a fire ring and lit a fire. (Judging by the proliferation of fire scars in the North Campground in recent years, this is not an isolated phenomenon). When my wife approached them and pointed out the sign, they said that they'd "heard from a friend" that the fire period had been extended to May, and that they would be careful anyway and make sure that their fire wouldn't get out of control! What were these people teaching their kids? That rules and regulations didn't apply to them? Along with the greater amount of birdlife in the North Campground and the smaller amount of alcohol-fuelled noise, one of the reasons we have camped in the North Campground for many years is to get away from the smoke that hangs around fires of an evening and through the night.
It would be great if we could have an area where people could have fires for a certain part of the year and others could enjoy their own fire-free zone. Short of something amazing happening and Parks Victoria suddenly investing a massive amount of money at Arapiles to supervise the park on a more intensive level and perhaps have a full-time ranger on site, things are likely to continue much as they have been for some time now. The recommendation to further limit the fire-burning period is in the best interests of the park, and, long-term all of its users. Can't those of you who are so strident in opposing this recommendation see that? Arapiles is a unique environment: that's why so many of us love it. Let's not love it to death.

tnd
10/06/2011
8:25:49 AM
On 10/06/2011 Doug Bruce wrote:
>...When my wife approached them and pointed
>out the sign, they said that they'd "heard from a friend" that the fire
>period had been extended to May, and that they would be careful anyway
>and make sure that their fire wouldn't get out of control! What were these
>people teaching their kids? That rules and regulations didn't apply to
>them?...

Didn't you have a hammer?

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