Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop

Black Diamond: 120cm Nylon Runner. (Open sewn sling) 18mm wide nylon. Assorted colours. Awesome value IMO.   $8.50
15% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 8 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 179
Author
Bolting at Piddo (+ easy sport climbs)

stugang
13/05/2011
3:52:36 PM
Upon reflection after reading all these enlightened posts. I think us nay sayers have got it all wrong. Its not about the climbing community as it is now, its about the potential for what we can become. Its about opening doors to the marginalised in our society - as I'm sure you know; the true measure of a civil society is the manner in which we treat those less fortunate than ourselves.

Hence the need for bolted pox easy routes as I am 100 percent behind braindead fukwits becoming part of our community.

tnd
13/05/2011
4:31:54 PM
On 13/05/2011 useful wrote:
>...I am 100 percent behind braindead
>fukwits becoming part of our community.
>
That's why we let you sign up to Chockstone.

Miguel75
13/05/2011
4:40:09 PM
On 13/05/2011 useful wrote:
>.... as I am 100 percent behind braindead fukwits becoming part of our community.

Thanks useful; I already feel like part of the community.

stugang
13/05/2011
4:47:35 PM
On 13/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>On 13/05/2011 useful wrote:
>>...I am 100 percent behind braindead
>>fukwits becoming part of our community.
>>
>That's why we let you sign up to Chockstone.

And for this I shall be eternally grateful.

Thankyou - such a little thing to you means so much to me.
Chockstone Moderator
13/05/2011
7:54:40 PM
Just a general reminder.
Robust debate is fine, but try not to make personal comments about posters that express an opinion that you disagree with.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
8:14:13 PM
Thank you Wendy for expressing very well (for the most part), what I would be inclined to say about the sportifying of Piddo, or other classic trad climbing areas.

Many of your posts have nailed it, as far as I am concerned.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
8:19:59 PM
On 13/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>The Nowra cracks were bolted with the absolute intention of pissing people
>off. Don't let it - it's Nowra.
>

It worked.

Nowra is sport climbing, so I don't expect any better ethic.

As long as that poor example of sportclimbing ethic is confined to Nowra, then I am happy to sacrifice that to conveniencifying for the hard grade sport people, and the wannabehardgradesportpeeps.
If it extends to Mt Piddington then I can see the traditionalists getting their bolt croppers out...
patto
13/05/2011
8:24:00 PM
I would love to participate further in this thread but I'm far too busy at the moment. I'll keep it short. Suffice to say there are bolts all over the bluies, why is there a desire to bolt the best trad crag in the entire area?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
8:26:41 PM
On 13/05/2011 Samuel wrote:
>Funny, it wasn't there years ago. Never seen any sand. Also the rope remains
>in a straight line and does not rub on any of the iron stone band. I know
>because i checked this when i bolted it.
>
>Although i have not had any negative feedback from people that have actaully
>climbed it, maybe it's a bad route ? Personally i stand by it, but would
>like to hear actual feedback from people have climbed it.
>
>Why you need doubles is beyond me. Try using a longer draw. It does not
>rub.

>Stick clip the first bolt, and what do know. Protected first move.


Did you put up this route for yourself, or for others?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
8:34:06 PM
On 13/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>In the last several years I've FA'd, among other harder stuff, two ground
>up trad routes - 13M1 (13 with a grade 20 start) and 17 - and three easy
>bolted routes - 14 and two 15's (both of which are mostly grade 12). The
>13 trad has had two repeats, one by me, and the 17 trad a handful. The
>easy bolted routes have had people swarming all over them. Rock quality
>of all of them is similar - not great, but ok by Blue Mountains standards.
>
(snip)
>
>I reckon a lot of those people will gain confidence on those easy bolted
>routes and go on to participate in trad climbing anyway, so it's not the
>start of some slippery slope as some would have it.
>
(snip)

I disagree, and from the sheer volume of posts on this topic by many posters, I suggest that you need to revisit your definition of 'slippery slope'.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
8:48:59 PM
On 13/05/2011 egosan wrote:
>
>On 13/05/2011 egosan wrote:
>>>...Your convenience is not a good reason to place bolts in our public
>spaces.
>
>On 13/05/2011 tnd wrote:
>>I think it is.
>
>Well, there it is. The
tragedy of the commons.
>
>On 13/05/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>>As soon as they got fully bolted they suddenly became popular. That's
>how
>>the world works these days.
>
>The proliferation of bolts at Australian crags is only made possible by
>people individually deciding it is inevitable. The justification of "That's
>just how it is" to passively watch or worse to contribute to the problem
>is entirely disingenuous.
>
For those too lazy to follow the link, here is the 'nub' of it...
a hypothetical and simplified situation based on medieval land tenure in Europe, of herders sharing a common parcel of land, on which they are each entitled to let their cows graze. In Hardin's example, it is in each herder's interest to put the next (and succeeding) cows he acquires onto the land, even if the quality of the common is temporarily or permanently damaged for all as a result, through overgrazing. The herder receives all of the benefits from an additional cow, while the damage to the common is shared by the entire group. If all herders make this individually rational economic decision, the common will be depleted or even destroyed to the detriment of all.


You raise good points egosan.


nmonteith
13/05/2011
9:06:26 PM
On 13/05/2011 patto wrote:
>Suffice to say there are bolts all
>over the bluies, why is there a desire to bolt the best trad crag in the
>entire area?

There is this strange belief that Piddington is a trad cliff. It's not. It's a mixed climbing area. There are some stonker trad lines, but also plenty of good semi bolted and fully bolted lines. Many of these bolts were placed in the first years of the crags development and bolts have been placed there every year since then. Some of the most popular climbs on the cliff involve bolts.

A real trad cliff is somewhere like Stanage in the UK where there are no bolts at all.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
9:09:04 PM
On 13/05/2011 Wendy wrote:
>On 12/05/2011 useful wrote:
>>Sport climbing started out with the justification of "its just the moves"
>>implying something about quality (hard or easy).
>>
>>Now it seems they want to claim all the crap routes too! Enough is enough
>>- crap is the last bastion of trad and we should fight for it.
>>
>>KEEP CRAP TRAD
>
>thanks for that, you just made my morning.

+1.
cogsy
13/05/2011
9:16:09 PM
Maybe if you are climbing under 20 it feels like a trad cliff.

For grade 20+ routes there are quite a lot of sport routes, and even more that need only a couple of bits of gear.
How many full trad routes over grade 20? Maybe half a dozen?
Sport and mostly bolted routes over 20...maybe 25 or 30?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2011
9:17:08 PM
On 13/05/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>On 13/05/2011 patto wrote:
>>Suffice to say there are bolts all
>>over the bluies, why is there a desire to bolt the best trad crag in
>the
>>entire area?
>
>There is this strange belief that Piddington is a trad cliff. It's not.
>It's a mixed climbing area. There are some stonker trad lines, but also
>plenty of good semi bolted and fully bolted lines. Many of these bolts
>were placed in the first years of the crags development and bolts have
>been placed there every year since then. Some of the most popular climbs
>on the cliff involve bolts.
>
>A real trad cliff is somewhere like Stanage in the UK where there are
>no bolts at all.

WW&S advocates it is alright to keep the sportbumblies/guidedclientel away from the 'real Piddo' by staying on this route at the start/access to same.
You are saying that more sport low grade climbs need to be available generally as well as specifically* in the Bluies (*my interpretation of your posts).
You are justifying it as OK at Mt Piddington based on existence of other bolts/ed routes.

WW&S is focussed on the physical thin end of the Piddo wedge, but you seem to be well down the slippery slope of that same wedge to my way of thinking.

Do you not see this?

nmonteith
13/05/2011
9:55:42 PM
On 13/05/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>WW&S advocates it is alright to keep the sportbumblies/guidedclientel
>away from the 'real Piddo' by staying on this route at the start/access

There is no shortage of bumbles on the main section of Piddo already! That area around Faith is trashed and almost always crowded on a weekend. Low impact trad it is not.

>You are saying that more sport low grade climbs need to be available generally
>as well as specifically* in the Bluies (*my interpretation of your posts).

I'm not going out of my way to find them and bolt them. But I do climb quite a few of them when im doing something nearby. Im a pretty optimistic climber - I enjoy pretty much everything and the easy routes make it enjoyable for some of the less confident climbers I go climbing with. It's all part of the 'game'. I certainly don't get offended seeing an easy sport route, especially if there a plenty of harder bolted routes nearby. Without a grade attached its just another climb with bolts.

>You are justifying it as OK at Mt Piddington based on existence of other
>bolts/ed routes.

Yes. Mainly because I have a real world appreciation of climbing areas and cliffs including Piddington. Im not into theoretical concepts and hardline views. I make a point of actually visiting the areas people speak of and try to climb as wide variety of routes as I can. Rather than bitch about the ethics of an area thousands of kilmoetres away where I'll never visit I actually go climbing at a lot of different areas and travel extensively to see them first hand. I'm not goign to comment about the route in question until i climb it. I've not seen this mystical massive debacle caused by some easy sport routes anywhere in the world.
hipdos
13/05/2011
10:04:34 PM
On 13/05/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Nowra is sport climbing, so I don't expect any better ethic.

Why would you view Nowra in the light of trad or mixed area ethics?
How many cracks are there at Nowra? One for every hundred routes? And every other climb cannot be naturally protected. So the whole area is sport and the ethic is all bolts. Except for a few cracks that are not bolted, which never get climbed.
It's not an inferior ethic, it's just different. The fact that Nowra is all bolted doesn't mean cracks are going to get bolted in the Blue Mountains.

stugang
13/05/2011
10:04:41 PM

Hey mod. If that was meant at me I'm sorry but struggling to see what I did
wong.

Any comments I made were purposely impersonal. And for what its worth the
low grade bolted routes mentioned by neil and tnd sound pretty good (apart
from the gramps shit).

However,

Bolting easy routes at established crags is always gonna be controversial -
as there will be a million climbers before you that looked at it and
thought about it and thought it wasn't worth it (that's if they didn't
climb it and not bother to record it).

If you can think of three reasons why you are better and more insightful
than those million people before you then go for your life.

P.S. Those reasons need to be auditable and you really need to be honest with yourself (and that they were lazy and didn't care doesn't count).

nmonteith
13/05/2011
10:17:35 PM
On 13/05/2011 useful wrote:
>Bolting easy routes at established crags is always gonna be controversial
>as there will be a million climbers before you that looked at it and
>thought about it and thought it wasn't worth it (that's if they didn't
>climb it and not bother to record it).
>
>If you can think of three reasons why you are better and more insightful
>than those million people before you then go for your life.

Usually the number one reason why is because the people doing first ascents are usually experienced climbers, which means they usually climb hard grades. To bolt an easy route takes a lot of time and money and very little return to the bolter. I always try and get 'value for money' out of doing a new route. If I'm going to invest $50 or $100 bolting a new route then I'd like to hope it takes me more than 10 minutes to climb. So I mostly bolt routes which will take me a few shots to do and give me a challenge.

Reason #2. Some of the few easier routes I have bolted were done to give a particular crag a better warm-up climb. When I was a young punk I didn't believe in warm-ups as I had invincible tendons. Now I need to actually do something easier before pulling hard moves! This easier climb doesn't need to be a three star classic - just something mildly enjoyable to limber up.

Reason #3 - people back in the ye olde days drilled bolts by hand. This was a painful and tedious process (I did this for my first 30 or so new routes). To add 10 bolts took all day - or multiple days if you were bolting in volcanics! I know some of my earlier routes had stupid runouts because I just got bored with hammering for hours on end and instead preinspected marginal trad and did dodgy runouts. If i'd had a power drill I would have placed a lot more bolts. After climbing with a lot of the older generation of new routers from the golden age (1970s) I can attest that many admit their bold routes were mistakes because they couldn't be bothered hand drilling more bolts. Many of these climbers have begun retrobolting many of their old routes to make them more accessible.

nmonteith
13/05/2011
10:42:56 PM
One more reason - (good) bolts can make choss climbing fun. Southerners probably don't appreciate how crap most of the Blue Mtsn rock is compared to the Grampians/Arapiles. With solid deep glue-in bolts and some studious glue re-enforcement of key holds you can climb rock which would be death on a stick as trad route. Bluies rock has a hard outer crust (usually only a few mm thick) and inside its sandy crud. When you climb you use hand and foot holds on the harder outer rock. Sadly your metal trad gear doesn't take many falls to break the harder outer coating and then it has to hold in sandy crud. It just doesn't work very well in sand. Cams track out and rock explodes. Bolts hold fast. So the invention of proper glue in bolts 15 years ago has opened a world of steeper (and chossier) climbing which was not possible on trad or using the old style carrots.

 Page 8 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 179
There are 179 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints