Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop

Black Diamond: SET of 8 "C4" Cams and 8 matching wire gates. Sizes .3 .4 .5 .75 1 2 3 & 4 and 8 anodised "neutrino" - wire gate karabiners. NB Comes with a FREE carry bag.  $775.00
20% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 34
Author
directional gear

popeye
2-May-2012
2:27:16 PM
i was just wondering if directional gear is a nessessity on all trad climbing? and what about sport climbing?
kieranl
2-May-2012
2:35:35 PM
It's essential in trad unless you want your gear to pull out below you due to rope movement. Read up on it and then spend some time on easy routes trying out all sorts of stuff. Easy routes at Arapiles are great for this because you can put runners in all sorts of places and see what works.
Sport, not a problem in terms of runners pulling out (you hope!) but for routes that aren't straight up and down you need to keep in mind how you clip your quickdraws to avoid gates opening and other weird things during falls.
martym
2-May-2012
2:51:13 PM
Your question seems about two things - placements & gear.
Some gear can only be placed a certain direction, otherwise the fall rating / strength / likelihood of pulling is compromised (eg. tricams, rigid cams, offsets)

Directional placements are always important - not only for climbers but belayers as well - if a climber takes a fall and all the gear has been placed to take a downward load - the belayer being pulled up by the impact of the climber on the rope would potentially remove that gear. So generally it's a good idea to place a piece in each direction for a belayer to avoid this.

For sport climbing the issue is the direction of a potential fall in relation to the rope, gate & position of the bolt.
Also for top roping - the direction or an anchor affects the pressure on the bolts / gear used to set it up as well as potential swing for a falling climber and damage to the rope.
One Day Hero
2-May-2012
3:11:59 PM
Martym has given you a good intro, Kieran's advice is sensibly conservative, although there are some times where you don't have to stress about it (once you know what you're doing!)

Rope directional stuff isn't super complicated, although some of it isn't obvious. What year are you in? Have you done much Trigonometry and Vector stuff? You don't need to know trig to understand how to be a safe climber, but if you've done some at school it is pretty sweet to be able to use it for something (other than measuring the height of the schoolyard tree for your yr 9 assignment!)

popeye
2-May-2012
3:50:06 PM
what do you do if there isn't any places available for the directional piece?
widewetandslippery
2-May-2012
4:05:46 PM
do or die. Rock scrambling can be a hazardous activity
One Day Hero
2-May-2012
4:16:46 PM
Sometimes you won't get a directional exactly where you want it, but you'll be able to place one higher (it'll still work). Sometimes it turns out that you don't need one anyway. Other times the gear is totally crap, you can't reverse the moves, you're pumping out, and if you fall off you're gonna break your legs.........welcome to trad climbing (this is why so many people stick to clipping bolts)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2-May-2012
5:12:32 PM
kieranl wrote;
>Read up on it (snip)

Many climbing books have chapters on placing gear and consequently there is potentially a lot of reading that you can do, but to cut a long story short, ... pay particular attention to the 'Jesus piece'.

This is the first protection piece placed on the climbing pitch being undertaken, and it is always a good thing if it is capable of sustaining multidirectional loads. If it is good for upward loading, then it stops pieces placed higher (for downward loads), lifting out under rope tension in a climber fall. If it is good for downward loading then it may stop you decking out if you fall while leading. If the route wanders off to the side then it needs to be extended with a long sling to help prevent sideways loading of higher pieces that may cause them to twist out while under rope tension.

If you can't get a good multidirectional first piece, then place more as backups, ie one for downward load and another for any upward load that may come onto it as a result of rope tension.

Note that rope tension can result from more than a fall by the lead climber from higher on the climb. It can come about due to 'drag' (friction), of the rope through placements (especially on wandery trad routes), and this can be sufficient to dislodge poorly placed or marginal protection.

will5686
4-May-2012
12:11:14 AM
I've been told that if it is possible to place a cam as your first piece, backed up by a nut, then this is the way to go. I would love to hear if others agree with this.

I have also been told a story about a guy falling off the top of a climb and the whole thing unzipping from the bottom because he hadn't placed a single peice that would take an upward pull...

Having some sort of multi-directional gear seems to be the prudent option.
One Day Hero
4-May-2012
12:51:36 AM
On 4/05/2012 will5686 wrote:
>I've been told that if it is possible to place a cam as your first piece,
>backed up by a nut, then this is the way to go. I would love to hear if
>others agree with this.
>
Look, it would be nice if life were that simple, but it isn't. Some nut placements are multidirectional, some cam placements aren't.

>I have also been told a story about a guy falling off the top of a climb
>and the whole thing unzipping from the bottom because he hadn't placed
>a single peice that would take an upward pull...
>
A way I like to think about it is this; At any point on a route, the only gear which will keep you unsmushed is the gear which is above the halfway point between you and the ground. For example, if you are 30m up on a pitch, any gear below 15m won't directly keep you off the deck (however, it may help to keep higher pieces in, which in turn will keep you off the deck). A bombproof multidirectional anchor 2m off the gound does nothing in a situation where you fall high up and all the pieces in the middle of the route strip out.......this can and does happen

The following needs diagrams, but I'll try without.

Say that your route starts with a 4m wall, to a 3m wide ledge, to a 25m high vertical wall. You climb up a couple of meters, then place your first piece to protect the ledge mantle. This piece doesn't need to be multidirectional, as you only need it to stay there for the mantle. If it falls out later, who cares? However, you need the first piece off the ledge to be multidirectional or a fall higher up will unzip everything. Likewise, it can be good to have mid-route multidirectional pieces on concave walls, and pitches which start by traversing then head up. In order to avoid unzippage, it helps to place a multidirectional piece at the point(s) on the route where the rope will change direction.

>Having some sort of multi-directional gear seems to be the prudent option.

Knowing what's going on, and how shit works, is the prudent option.
One Day Hero
4-May-2012
1:02:44 AM
While I'm picking holes in people's stories......

On 2/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
> If it is good for upward loading, then it stops
>pieces placed higher (for downward loads), lifting out under rope tension
>in a climber fall

then

>If the route wanders off to
>the side then it needs to be extended with a long sling to help prevent
>sideways loading of higher pieces that may cause them to twist out while
>under rope tension.


These two ideas are mutually exclusive! The first piece can either be on a short draw to prevent rope tension lifting later gear out, or be on a long sling to prevent drag........you can't have both at once (some amount of drag is an inevitable consequence of having directional pieces). If the first piece needs to be on a long sling, start looking to subsequent pieces as potential multidirectional one(s).

will5686
4-May-2012
8:52:38 AM
On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Look, it would be nice if life were that simple, but it isn't. Some nut
>placements are multidirectional, some cam placements aren't.

Good advice, but cams are one the hardest bits of pro for me to get my head aroun, and I can't find any info on google about which placements should be multi directional.

At any point on a route, the only
>gear which will keep you unsmushed is the gear which is above the halfway
>point between you and the ground. For example, if you are 30m up on a pitch,
>any gear below 15m won't directly keep you off the deck

Surely the situation is even worse than this because of the significant amount of stretch in a dynamic rope.


>
>The following needs diagrams, but I'll try without.

You did a pretty good job, thanks.

. In order to avoid unzippage, it helps
>to place a multidirectional piece at the point(s) on the route where the
>rope will change direction.

I didn't know this. In fact I generally try to avoid the rope changing direction, using fairly long slings. But I can see how this can't be avoided sometimes, and will look to placing a multidirectional piece there in future.

>Knowing what's going on, and how shit works, is the prudent option.

Too true. But on the other hand it is complex, so having some simple guidelines that apply to most climbs is a helpful option. I also generally try to climb with people who know more than me, and I always make a point of asking them for explicit instruction. Although checking their advice with other sources later is also sensible.
kieranl
4-May-2012
9:46:01 AM
On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>While I'm picking holes in people's stories......
>These two ideas are mutually exclusive! The first piece can either be
>on a short draw to prevent rope tension lifting later gear out, or be on
>a long sling to prevent drag........you can't have both at once

Not strictly mutually exclusive, but complex scenarios to deal with.
There's some useful stuff in these posts but you really can't learn this stuff in a web forum.
Directionals are just one part of the game of protecting trad climbs. You need to get a good book that deals with placing gear (I can't really advise you on which one as I haven't instructed for decades. ) then go out and experiment on easy stuff, with an experienced partner if you can get one.
It's really quite fun to learn, mucking around with opposed wires, keeper pieces, directionals even funky stuff like stacked nuts (can save your backside one day when you're all out of small cams).
If you want simple, here's a simple rule : put in lots more gear than you think you'll need, with at least 2 pieces close together before every hard bit, if you can get them.
Olbert
4-May-2012
11:13:53 AM
On 4/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>It's really quite fun to learn, mucking around with opposed wires, keeper
>pieces, directionals even funky stuff like stacked nuts (can save your
>backside one day when you're all out of small cams).

I have heard about stacked wires but never actually attempted it - I guess the time to learn is definitely not when I'm sketching out way above gear and am about to die as all the gear rips out below me. It should be noted that this should be a fairly extreme technique, I would wager many many climbers make it through their whole trad climbing careers and never use this (...then again I'de also wager there a few climbers who are definitely happy they did know this technique.)

>If you want simple, here's a simple rule : put in lots more gear than
>you think you'll need, with at least 2 pieces close together before every
>hard bit, if you can get them.

I run by the rule of if you are scared, place more gear. I had three bomber pieces in about a metre before the crux section of the route I was trying at Point Perpendicular on the weekend and after I fell off I then placed another piece higher whilst sitting on the rope - I then proceeded to fall onto that piece as well a bunch more times. I've forgotten the point of this story but suffice to say my seconder had got bloody hands getting my gear out - so it was a pretty successful day.


IdratherbeclimbingM9
4-May-2012
11:26:53 AM
On 4/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>While I'm picking holes in people's stories......
>>These two ideas are mutually exclusive! The first piece can either be on a short draw to prevent rope tension lifting later gear out, or be on a long sling to prevent drag........you can't have both at once (some amount of drag is an inevitable consequence of having directional pieces). If the first piece needs to be on a long sling, start looking to subsequent pieces as potential multidirectional one(s).
>
>Not strictly mutually exclusive, but complex scenarios to deal with.

I tend to agree with kieranl, though acknowledge your simplifications for the benefit of the original poster ODH(!), ... for as we know, there is often more than one way to do things, and there are also often many variables in the situations where you can do it, which helps make climbing such an engaging activity.

Hey ODHofthepickholetribe:), care to comment on the placements in the following pic (particularly the 1st placement, blue slung one), as a random example of 'exceptions to the mutually exclusive rule', heh, heh, heh.


~> The pic is titled: Looking down on your reply from a reasonable height! ;-)

Pat
4-May-2012
1:05:29 PM
Looks like the blue slung placement's karabiner might be facing the cliff . . if so tut tut. Nice pic though and good title.
DrNick
4-May-2012
1:24:44 PM
Hey there 'Stoners.

Long time reader, first time poster.

Thanks everyone for this very informative discussion. I'm just starting out with trad climbing after a few years of sport climbing overseas, and its great to have a (mostly!) supportive forum like this to learn a few things.

cheers.

Big G
4-May-2012
1:50:18 PM
On 4/05/2012 Pat wrote:
>Looks like the blue slung placement's karabiner might be facing the cliff
>. . if so tut tut. Nice pic though and good title.

is that streak eminating from the leaders backside evidence of his confidence in the placements?
One Day Hero
4-May-2012
2:07:26 PM
On 4/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>Hey ODHofthepickholetribe:), care to comment on the placements in the
>following pic (particularly the 1st placement, blue slung one), as a random
>example of 'exceptions to the mutually exclusive rule', heh, heh, heh.
>
Yep, that's an example of having a long sling on your first piece..........

The route looks nice and straight up to the point the climber is at, if the belayer were standing in against the base of the route none of the gear would get lifted in a fall. If the belayer wants to stand back, you'd want a directional piece on each rope (looks like only one rope going through the blue sling).

It does look like the blue sling is doing a good job for the rope it's on...........so I'll have to admit that you're right. I'm still happy with my version as the general rule though. If you kept adding length to that blue sling, it would decrease the drag, and decrease it's ability to keep higher pieces in the rock (looks like you got the length spot on) However, if you put any old bit of gear in the corner, any old sling length, then made sure the next piece was good for an outward and sideways pull, it'd be just as sweet in this case and more transferable to other situations.

But yes, you were right*










*only for fairly specific circumstances
One Day Hero
4-May-2012
2:24:04 PM
On 4/05/2012 Olbert wrote:

>I have heard about stacked wires but never actually attempted it - I guess
>the time to learn is definitely not when I'm sketching out way above
>gear and am about to die as all the gear rips out below me.

When I learned to climb, there were lots of people who talked about stacked nuts.......not sure anyone ever used it in anger. I also remember talk of wedging slung stitch plates/biners as emergency pro. Fark knows if any of the old kooks ever really did it, I certainly never needed to (although I did sometimes stuff around at belays frigging stacked nuts in as an exercise in wasting everyones time). I can't imagine trying to arrange stacked nuts with one hand, while sketching and pumping on a route, it's hard enough to get an ok placement with both hands. They're extremely untrustworthy in parallel cracks anyway.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 34
There are 34 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints