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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 73
Author
trad + grigri
Linze
28/02/2012
1:22:24 PM
..yes i know the conventional thinking on this but...

my partner weighs probably 2/3 of my weight, if that. this means that i have occasional encounters with the ground and we think that the gri gri is the differnce in making this soft rather than hard... so...

with a bit more trad climbing on the horizon, i am thinking of braking grigri + trad rule on single pitch routes, on the assumption that super dynamic belay she cant help but give will negate the extra force on the gear. being engeneeringly inept, my reasoning is that this couldnt really be more force that say a fall held on an atc on a hanging belay? have i overlooked something? do others do it?
psd
28/02/2012
1:48:51 PM
Yes we do it - same situation with a light belayer - you'll be fine.

IronCheff
28/02/2012
5:38:13 PM
I asked Petzl if the Grigri 2 is suitable for Trad climbing and I got the following response. The answer is not Yes or No so not sure if it helps at all. I don't have a Grigri but I do have a Click Up which has the same issue of positive lock off. I'm also lighter than my partner, I haven't used it on Trad yet but would like to.

#####From Petzl########
The Petzl GriGri2 is designed to belay a Lead Climber and a Second. The Petzl GriGri2 is able to be used for Top-roping, Single-pitch or Multi-pitch climbing.
Due to the overwhelming range of factors in climbing, it is the decision of the climber to decide which is the most appropriate device for his/her skill level and environment of operation.

For guidance on the use of the Petzl GriGri2 please refer to the Tehcnical Notice (that can be downloaded from here: http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belay-devices/grigri ) and also the Experience page that can be found here: http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/grigri-experience
Linze
28/02/2012
6:05:38 PM
thanks psd... considering how launched she gets catching falls sport climbing (have numerous times disproven the gri gri jams open on the first draw theory) i dont think she was keen to add further drama

On 28/02/2012 IronCheff wrote:
>I asked Petzl if the Grigri 2 is suitable for Trad climbing and I got the
>following response. The answer is not Yes or No so not sure if it helps
>at all. I don't have a Grigri but I do have a Click Up which has the same
>issue of positive lock off. I'm also lighter than my partner, I haven't
>used it on Trad yet but would like to.
>
>
Thanks iron cheff. quite the typically vague corporate @ss covering response you got from petzl eh..
I personally wouldnt be going down this road if my partner wasnt significantly lighter than me (im talking sub 45 vs bit over 70) - have always used an atc in the past. i dont know where, but i read that atc slips at 3kn, gri gri at 9ish, meaning (i guess) that it wouldnt slip under many falls???..what this means at the rock end i dont know. so fwiw,i personally wouldnt go the gri gri in normal situations, if that helps you at all.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28/02/2012
6:16:16 PM
On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>with a bit more trad climbing on the horizon, i am thinking of braking
>grigri + trad rule on single pitch routes, on the assumption that super
>dynamic belay she cant help but give will negate the extra force on the
>gear. being engeneeringly inept, my reasoning is that this couldnt really
>be more force that say a fall held on an atc on a hanging belay? have
>i overlooked something?

If I am reading this correctly, and you are doing trad multipitch, make sure that your belay anchors are good for upward loading as well as downward!

nmonteith
28/02/2012
6:23:47 PM
It's fine - almost every trad route and trad climber I have climbed with in the last 5 years is using a Gri-Gri. I've never seen any evidence of problems. I'd prefer to know my belay device will autolock than the small chance it will put more force on a bit of trad.
Linze
28/02/2012
6:30:51 PM
On 28/02/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>If I am reading this correctly, and you are doing trad multipitch, make
>sure that your belay anchors are good for upward loading as well
>as downward!
>☺

??????!!!!!! am i missing a joke here???
Olbert
28/02/2012
6:55:17 PM
On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>On 28/02/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>
>>If I am reading this correctly, and you are doing trad multipitch, make
>>sure that your belay anchors are good for upward loading as well
>>as downward!
>>☺
>
>??????!!!!!! am i missing a joke here???

He's talking about if you take a big whipper high on a multipitch, you partner catches you and then she gets yanked up. If the belay is only made with a downward loading in mind then her being yanked up might rip out the entire belay. This might leave both you and her dangling off that piece you just fell on...not a happy scenario.

As for the trad + grigri = bad theory, in most situations that is bullshit. If you are doing a route with marginal gear than the extra force generated by an autolocking device might make the crucial difference between the only protection between you and the ground failing or not. Most of the time, most people will be doing routes that have a much higher safety margin than this. Really though, it's up to each climber/partner to make this decision.
widewetandslippery
28/02/2012
8:59:16 PM
nothing wrong with an auto bloc device as long as a human is in the chain. We make great shock absorbers. Don,t use auto blocs direct to the belay. Its rainining so gota go and there are nibbles, fish on!
One Day Hero
28/02/2012
9:41:42 PM
This kinda highlights why 'rules based learning' is inferior to 'concepts based learning' in climbing. The list of rules and exceptions you'd have to learn in order to make good decisions in any given situation is massively more complex than the concepts you'd need to understand for the same level of competence.

Therefore, when you learn that "you must do A whenever situation B presents itself", it pays to also find out why.
One Day Hero
28/02/2012
9:47:55 PM
Btw, I'm not hanging shit on anyone here. The o.p. has worked out the answer to the problem for themselves (thinking things through is good)...........asking other people if you've got it right is good too
Linze
29/02/2012
12:01:17 AM
On 28/02/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Btw, I'm not hanging shit on anyone here. The o.p. has worked out the answer
>to the problem for themselves (thinking things through is good)...........
.......but 'worked out' a little too slowly. fact is, even though i climb on gear sporadically at best, I still bought into the never use a gri gri sh1t for more than a decade, bc someone 'taught' it to me when I first climbed ... weird thing is, I know of more than a couple of decently capable climbers (by this im thinking mid 20s on gear) switching to the atc when they venture away from their usual sport lives, which influenced my ongoing use of it, old habits maybe...???

thanks all, im liberated from archaic climbing equipment..
mikllaw
29/02/2012
9:19:56 AM
and if the gear looks dodgy, tell your belayer to lose weight fast
kieranl
29/02/2012
9:25:56 AM
On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:
> on the assumption that super
>dynamic belay she cant help but give will negate the extra force on the
>gear.
The only problem I have is not with the use of the GriGri but with what appears to be the assumption that your partner is going to be pulled into the air in the event of a fall. That's somewhat reinforced by your reaction to M9s suggestion of setting the belay to take an upward force. I may have misread this but you do have to rethink that.
Even if you're only doing single pitch in trad you always have to think about multi-directional forces. If your belayer is standing out from the cliff and you fall she might be pulled off her feet and into the air as in sport, but the rope angle may also lift out your lower pieces and leave you dangling off only one piece. If the top piece then pops you're in trouble - has happened on Little Thor a couple of times.
If your belayer is significantly lighter in trad I would recommend an upward anchor or directional even at ground level. Once you are off the ground you must have bombproof directional belays and your belayer should tied in so they're comfortable but not able to be pulled any distance.

skink
29/02/2012
9:34:12 AM
On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:

>my partner weighs probably 2/3 of my weight, if that. this means that
>i have occasional encounters with the ground and we think that the gri
>gri is the differnce in making this soft rather than hard... so...

You are wrong in this thinking. You are hitting the ground because your belayer is being lifted up, not because of the device. Tie the belayer down and problem is solved.

nmonteith
29/02/2012
10:04:58 AM
Obviously I use an ATC if I am using double ropes - or on a multipitch if a rap in is required (ie Pierces Pass). They are much lighter than a Gri-Gri so good for fast and light approach. Single pitch trad however I use a Gri-Gri.
Linze
29/02/2012
10:43:24 AM
On 29/02/2012 andesite wrote:
>On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>
>>my partner weighs probably 2/3 of my weight, if that. this means that
>>i have occasional encounters with the ground and we think that the gri
>>gri is the differnce in making this soft rather than hard... so...
>
>You are wrong in this thinking. You are hitting the ground because your
>belayer is being lifted up, not because of the device. Tie the belayer
>down and problem is solved.

..since you mentioned it, of all the things that bug me when climbing it is when i see people tie belayers to the deck under the premise that it will somehow make the activity safer/work better. it creates general discomfort for all invloved. hitting the deck softly is completly acceptable in my mind - getting tossed around while attached to a nearby tree root is the worst thing imaginable...

@ keirall...the response to m9 was more about the disconnect between the single pitch vs multi pitch nature of our respective posts. m9 did read my post wrong/or i wrote it wrong. thanks for offering the advice, though these principles are some of the few that are in my quite sparse bank of trad experience...
One Day Hero
29/02/2012
10:59:36 AM
Yeah, I'm with you on that Linze, being strapped to the ground is a pain in the arse. If using a gri gri will fix the problem, its a better solution.

Btw, what sort of trad routes are you climbing where you're hitting the deck regularly? It just doesn't seem to happen to anyone I climb with.

skink
29/02/2012
11:17:42 AM
n 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 andesite wrote:
>>On 28/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>>
>>>my partner weighs probably 2/3 of my weight, if that. this means that
>>>i have occasional encounters with the ground and we think that the gri
>>>gri is the differnce in making this soft rather than hard... so...
>>
>>You are wrong in this thinking. You are hitting the ground because your
>>belayer is being lifted up, not because of the device. Tie the belayer
>>down and problem is solved.
>
>..since you mentioned it, of all the things that bug me when climbing
>it is when i see people tie belayers to the deck under the premise that
>it will somehow make the activity safer/work better. it creates general
>discomfort for all invloved. hitting the deck softly is completly acceptable
>in my mind - getting tossed around while attached to a nearby tree root
>is the worst thing imaginable...
>

You are missing my point, which is that if you use a Grigri, you will still deck. The rope is not slipping through the ATC, the belayer is being lifted. The rope slips at 3kN+, about 300kg of force - so your lightweight belayer (<<300kg) is lifted into the air before enough force appears at the ATC for it to begin slipping. Get it? It is acting like a Grigri anyway...

I agree tying down the belayer is not ideal, but since using a Grigri won't actually solve your problem, I thought I'd mention it
Linze
29/02/2012
11:57:46 AM
On 29/02/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>Btw, what sort of trad routes are you climbing where you're hitting the
>deck regularly?

the o.p. was slightly in jest (tho the question was genuine). have found myself on the deck a few more than a couple of times with her belaying. not trad, sport. the best was at the end of the day at rosies 2 years back when in an advanced state of pump i fell of an astonishgly large jug in the middle of megamac after skipping a bolt that many do, and ended up running along the ground past her.. she did everything right, and always does, it is just becasue she is really damn light that in some situations it can end up as meters more that usual. i reckon the cms gained out of an automated devise makes it workable in some situations.. there are some routes that i just dont climb with her belaying cause it dont think it will work.

It just doesn't seem to happen to anyone I climb with.

then tell em they are standing too close to the cliff and there is not enough slack out...

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 73
There are 73 messages in this topic.

 

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