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Belay Biner?


kobaz

20-Jan-2005
6:30:16 PM

While looking for gear a while back, I remember seeing a locking biner with a wiregate that sectioned off the top of the biner for a belay device. The function of the gate would be to keep the belay device from being loaded over the main locking gate of the biner. Does anyone know what company makes a biner like this?

Picture of what I'm trying to describe (forgive my lack of artisticness):

I've found this:

But It's just a piece of rubber and not a gate, which seems quite silly.


maxots

20-Jan-2005
6:37:57 PM

this i think is the dmm belay master or some such, Itll do what you intend (keep the biner orientated corredctly, but i have never found this to be a problem....if you really are you could put one of those rubber things on your belay biner where it meets your harness so it doesnt spinn!


cheesehead

20-Jan-2005
6:50:40 PM

You mean like an elastic band, or finger tape?

To play devils advocate, has anyone had a problem with misaligned biners?

Hijack - (Mike, you ought to frisk us for weapons of mass distraction when we board the chockstone astrolounge), Why is it that big fat belay biners often have lower ratings than some regular gates, etc. Ie, there's not a huge corelation between the size and failure rating of biners?

Maxi, lurve the artwork. Reminds me of a map to Araps that G drew for me on the computer one day....


kobaz

20-Jan-2005
8:26:23 PM

From time to time when I'm belaying I find that my biner has flipped and is in a cross loading position. It won't happen if the system is completely taught all the time, but if there is some slack and the biner has a chance to roll around, it can.

rightarmbad

20-Jan-2005
10:20:20 PM

The reason belay biners are weaker is that they are loaded away from the spine. Other biners force the rope close to the spine where it is the strongest. Same reason ovals are never rated really high.


shaggy

20-Jan-2005
10:26:38 PM

to answer the question at hand, the wire part was at the small end on the biner, and could be removed and I think from memory they fitted most standard shaped and sized screw gates. They came on, again I think, some dmm biners.


cheesehead

21-Jan-2005
1:08:47 AM

On 20/01/2005 rightarmbad wrote:
>The reason belay biners are weaker is that they are loaded away from the
>spine. Other biners force the rope close to the spine where it is the strongest.

Sorry mate, I don't completely follow.
Do you mean that the load carries through the 'Gate side' of the biner, rather than the spine end?
To my mind, that would mean that ovals evenly distribute the load down each side, thus being stronger.


Hatman

21-Jan-2005
7:43:55 AM

I use a omega sbgII belay device with an omega jake scregate biner.
This prevents the belay device sliping over the gate because the hole in the sbgII is to small. The sbgII has a grove that the rope jams in to arest a fall rather well. also you can set it up to rap like an old fig8 wich is handy when you have a huge load pack.

Also the jake gate opens off centre so that it misses the spine untill open further thus giveing a large gap wich i hav found handy at belay stations ect when trying to jam heaps of slings/ropes in to it. (great for cold hands to!)


nmonteith

21-Jan-2005
8:40:11 AM

I can reccomend the DMM Belay Master (plastic swing lock biner pitcured above). When self-belaying, using a gri-gri i find the biner can rotate. In a self-belay fall you don't want any crossloading! It works great for normal belaying as well. It is a very simple on-off system.


kobaz

21-Jan-2005
9:55:28 AM

Hmm, so it's plastic. The thing is how well does it hold? As in how much (or little) force would be required to have the plastic gate swing open or detatch?


maxots

21-Jan-2005
10:34:50 AM

I dont mean to sound silly neil (obviously youve done much more aiding/self belaying than me) but have you tried using a maillon, i find you can crank em down so theres no way they can come undone, and using a semi circular one threaded like your belay loop, it is Impossible to cross load (besides its rated 50kn or some nonsense.


nmonteith

21-Jan-2005
11:07:47 AM

On 21/01/2005 maxots wrote:
>have you tried using a maillon,

How do you un-clip the gri-gri if the mallion is 'cranked down?' I would be un-clipping it several times an hour in belay changeovers ect... a screwgate is much easier!

The plastic bit is smooth and guides the direction of the load towards the metal bit of the 'biner.

dave

22-Jan-2005
8:33:10 PM

Kobaz
Im pretty sure the initial biner you have (expertly) drawn is one made by HB
We use them at hardrock and they are on the hire harness'
the little wire thing is designed to stop people stealing, cross loading and or losing their biners
to remove the wire thing you need a pair of pliers, they are not really any use for actual climbing! Go the DMM belay master to avoid cross loading

Like this?

Dave


kobaz

23-Jan-2005
6:01:26 AM

I've seen that biner used at a gym I used to go to. They had attached them to gri-gri's that were attached to the rope to prevent people stealing the gri-gris. They tied (and melted) a very beefy knot at the end of the rope so you couldn't just slide the rope out of the gri-gri. Basicly the gri-gri and biner were "perminantly" attached to the rope. Who knows how long those ropes have been up there since it would be quite the pain to undo everything. Needless to say I don't climb there anymore.

Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me that I remember seeing a biner like that with a wiregate instead of a bar. Hehe.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jan-2005
10:29:36 AM

On 20/01/2005 kobaz wrote:
>While looking for gear a while back, I remember seeing a locking biner
>with a wiregate that sectioned off the top of the biner for a belay device.
> The function of the gate would be to keep the belay device from being
>loaded over the main locking gate of the biner. (snip).

I thought the 'wired off' section was to keep the attaching sling in place, and to assist in keeping the krab oriented correctly.
What kind of belay device are you intending using with it?, as things like sticht plates and their 'cousins' move around a bit in use anyway.
Paying attention while belaying and careful rope management is much more important than relying on a bit of gear to do it for you.

On 21/01/2005 maxots wrote:
>have you tried using a maillon,

In my caving days I used maillons. I have had the unpleasant experience of finding 'cranked down' ones actually undone when they were not intended to be, possibly due to the harsh usage environment?
When I adopted the USA style of wall climbing (cleaning pitches on jumars) I initially used maillons as part of my jumar setup. Once again I found tightened* ones eventually worked loose.
(*I did not gorilla them, nor did I use locktight on them, but they were nipped up securely + some).
I have gone back to screwgates now for their convenience, as they can be obtained in about the same weight, so the only advantage the maillon had was smaller size for certain applications.


kobaz

24-Jan-2005
12:59:42 PM

> What kind of belay device are you intending using with it?, as things like sticht plates and their 'cousins'
> move around a bit in use anyway.
> Paying attention while belaying and careful rope management is much more important than relying on a
> bit of gear to do it for you.

I don't like relying on gear when proper technique can avoid the gear reliance, but there are always cases where using a bit of gear as a bonus to safety is helpful. I primarily belay with an atc, and keep my attention on the climber, and periodicly check my belay device and biner for proper orientation.

The problem arrises when you look down and see the biner flipped into a perfect crossloading position. I tend to use a large pear biner on my belay loop. After immediatly fixing the setup a shudder goes through me when I think of what could have happened if the climber took a whipper.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jan-2005
1:23:27 PM

Sounds like the DMM belay master pictured above is the ticket for you. You could always leave it on your belay loop and duct tape the plastic orientation retainer in place?


niftydog

9-Feb-2005
6:07:38 PM

>I remember seeing a biner like that with a wiregate instead of a bar

I do too, but I can't find 'em. From memory they are usually large "industrial" type karabiners for clipping ladder rungs and handrails etc. I don't recall seeing a "normal" size karabiner with a wiregate captive eye.


runnit

10-Feb-2005
9:40:30 AM

kobaz,

so do you find that having the large pear biner helps prevent it twisting into a cross load or is the size the problem?

i'm just using a lucky (about average size i guess) and i'm having problems with it flipping while i'm belaying. is there anything that helps stop this or do you just have to keep a regular eye on it?


niftydog

10-Feb-2005
9:56:35 AM

>ovals evenly distribute the load down each side, thus being stronger.

Ovals are used where symmetry is important, such as in a hauling system with fixed cheek pulleys. The gate is the weak link in any carabiner, thus by directing the force across the spine (with a D shaped 'biner) the average breaking strength is higher.

There are 21 messages in this topic.