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Panzer ... 12 ... NOT!

ironmike

1-Aug-2006
10:52:40 AM

Well, went climbing on the weekend as a group of four ... average climbing grade ... 20's indoors and mid teens outdoors as a group.

We went by a list of recommended climbs, and Panzer shows as a two star 12 multi-pitch slab climb ... I can agree with the two stars ... slab technique ... definitely ... 12 ... I doubt it!

It wasn't just me, but we all agreed that it seemed to be a fair bit more difficult than a 12. I'd personally place it mid-teens. That being said, it had been raining overnight and we had a slight sprinkle before we started out as well, which I'm sure would have added to the difficulty of the climb with a bit of moisture on the wall.

Now ... okay, I'm just a bumbly ... but I certainly found the climb to be harder than Sexless Sue which is apparently a fourteen and I could just about run up Sexless Sue ... I found it significantly easier than any single pitch on Panzer. Go figure!


oweng

1-Aug-2006
11:16:30 AM

I remember finding the start of Panzer was very tricky, but after about 5 metres I thought the grade was ok. That said it had a few traverses that would raise the pulse a bit, and I do seem to remember my climbing partner takeing ages to climb the final pitch up the turrent, as he was a bit concerned about the situation. I guess I would have thought the grade is about right, but that it is a serious route requireing careful route finding, and care protecting the seconds in places (would have been interesting in a group of four!). Really worthwhile route in my opinion.

I can say that I did the route on the way to Moonarie. There are a couple of grade 12's harder than Panzer there.


Robb

1-Aug-2006
11:33:36 AM

definittely one of my favorites on the watchtower faces. and finding the right line can make the difference between the grade feeling about right or a grade harder. I find it very hard to tell the grades in the lower teens anyway. the last pitch is a bit airy on solo.

simey

1-Aug-2006
12:21:59 PM

Panzer is solid at the grade, but I think the grade is reasonable when you compare it to Bard and Watchtower Chimney which are also grade 12.

I don't think Sexless Sue (13, not 14) is a great yardstick for comparison given that Sexless Sue is a short, steep route with an overhang (more similar to gym climbing, and you've mentioned you climb grade 20 indoors).

And given that Panzer is a slab, any dampness would make it considerably more difficult.

Nottobetaken

1-Aug-2006
12:57:33 PM

On 1/08/2006 simey wrote:
>Panzer is solid at the grade, but I think the grade is reasonable when
>you compare it to Bard and Watchtower Chimney which are also grade 12.

Absolutely.
It might also be a case of you not being used to slabs as well (given your indoor resume). If that's the case, then obviously it will feel a tad tricky. The Bard IMO is way harder, than this or WC - though I know beefy will disagree with this. It's sort of like comparing Lamplighter as a 14 to that of D-Minor (also given 14). Nevertheless - Panzer is a real gem.

MichaelOR

1-Aug-2006
1:02:32 PM

Yeah, I climbed it many years ago ... when I was starting climbing and leading around that grade. I had a basic rack of chounard wires and hexes! Once I sorted out 'the path of least resistance' (based on the route description in Kim's Guide), it seemed OK at the grade. I found the last long pitch up the turret to be stunning and memorable. Really steep and juggy - but with straight forward moves. My seconds found the slabby sections, the traverse section and getting over the bulge down low, as the cruxes. I'd already led Salamander (13) and Bard (12), and I thought the grades were about right at that time.
Simeys comments about it being a slab, and not a gym climb, are very true. Also, being an Araps slab (and wet), as opposed to frictional granite, make it seem more committing when leading.
Over the years I've recommended the route to several climbers, who have all come back raving about it.
Michael

Fool in the Rain

1-Aug-2006
3:53:37 PM

I'm happy with Panzer as an Arapiles 12.. likewise Mantle as 14 and Brolga as 16. I've climbed all three in a day and the grades make a lot of sense in comparison. But then again I love slabs.. I led Mantle the year before last after quite a heavy rainfall and it really wasn't that bad.
Leave the gym grades where they belong; back in the gym!

Bob Saki

1-Aug-2006
3:55:16 PM

anyone got a good photo of this route they would post here?

sounds like one worth my while having a dip at.


sticky

1-Aug-2006
5:06:57 PM

On 1/08/2006 Bob Saki wrote:
>anyone got a good photo of this route they would post here?
>
>sounds like one worth my while having a dip at.

Panzer is a full value route - first pitch slab, second pitch arete/corner (take pick), third pitch juggy face. It represents what's good about Arapiles - plenty of variety and thoughtful climbing at any/every grade.

Bob Saki

1-Aug-2006
5:20:15 PM

On 1/08/2006 sticky wrote:
>
>Panzer is a full value route - first pitch slab, second pitch arete/corner
>(take pick), third pitch juggy face. It represents what's good about Arapiles
>- plenty of variety and thoughtful climbing at any/every grade.
>

Just sounds ace Sticky, thanks for the info
sounds like something to head up for in the next 3 weeks,..................
>

patto

2-Aug-2006
12:56:37 AM

On 1/08/2006 oweng wrote:
>I can say that I did the route on the way to Moonarie. There are a couple
>of grade 12's harder than Panzer there.

Tell me about it. Nervine 12*** is the hardest 12 I have ever lead. I didn't exactly have trouble but my seconder weighted the rope on several occasions. The stars were a bit generous too, I guess that is what you get when you climb one of the founding climbs at a crag.


dino

2-Aug-2006
9:22:35 AM

I actually found the first pitch to be very ordinary, second pitch I thought was really nice,pity i wasnt leading this pitch Owen! The third pitch found me veering bit too much to the right and I got a bit worried when I realised this fact. Apart from that very worthwile route for the grade in my opinion.

simey

2-Aug-2006
9:33:12 AM

On 2/08/2006 patto wrote:
>Tell me about it. Nervine 12*** is the hardest 12 I have ever lead... The stars were a bit generous too...

I thought Nervine at Moonarie was more like solid 14 (grade 15 if you do the direct start). Didn't have any qualms about it getting three stars though - superb climbing up a fantastic line.


oweng

2-Aug-2006
7:42:27 PM

On 2/08/2006 dino wrote:
>I actually found the first pitch to be very ordinary, second pitch I thought
>was really nice,pity i wasnt leading this pitch Owen! The third pitch
>found me veering bit too much to the right and I got a bit worried when
>I realised this fact. Apart from that very worthwile route for the grade
>in my opinion.

Actually now I think a bit more Gary, I think im confusing the first pitch of Mantle with the first pitch of Panzer. You lead me the whole way up Panzer if I recall correctly. My stupid memory is starting to play tricks on me.


dino

15-Aug-2006
12:31:35 PM

On 2/08/2006 oweng wrote:
>
>Actually now I think a bit more Gary, I think im confusing the first
>pitch of Mantle with the first pitch of Panzer. You lead me the whole way
>up Panzer if I recall correctly. My stupid memory is starting to play tricks
>on me.

You did lead the second pitch Owen and then I think you had a gravity issue on the third pitch belay ledge?

prb

15-Aug-2006
1:30:33 PM

On 2/8/06 Simey wrote:
>I thought Nervine at Moonarie was more like solid 14

But you'd probably think the 14s at Moonarie were more like solid 16. One good thing about being based in Adders is you're equidistant from two of the best crags anywhere. Very generally speaking, if I have a spell of climbing a lot at Araps, I find Moonarie can be intimidating with a premium on power and endurance. If I have a spell of climbing a lot at Moonarie, I find Araps can be a technical affair with subtle moves and precision footwork. The old "big robust red" versus "fine champagne" analogy.

I'd say Nervine is a good old-fashioned Moonarie 12. It just might be the best rockclimb in Australia at the grade.


kuu

15-Aug-2006
1:40:57 PM

>I'd say Nervine is a good old-fashioned Moonarie 12. It just might be
>the best rockclimb in Australia at the grade.

If it's not THE best rockclimb in Australia at the grade (whatever people think its grade actually is) it would have to be close. In the Top 5 at least!

And what a stunning situation. I think it was the first line I climbed at Moonarie and I considered it 'good value' for the grade. It certainly had me thinking at times, and looking around, the way one does on Kestrel (at Arapiles).

Ronny

15-Aug-2006
5:08:17 PM

On 15/08/2006 prb wrote:
>The old "big robust red" versus "fine champagne" analogy.

That's awesome. Very fitting.

simey

15-Aug-2006
7:16:12 PM

On 15/08/2006 prb wrote:
>On 2/8/06 Simey wrote:
>>I thought Nervine at Moonarie was more like solid 14
>
>But you'd probably think the 14s at Moonarie were more like solid 16.

I haven't done all that much climbing at Moonarie, but my feeling is that the grades are generally pretty tough there. I remember thinking that Flying Buttress was pretty bloody horrendous at 15, although Hangover Layback at 15 was a doddle in comparison.

On two previous trips I always thought that Downwind of Angels felt easy for 19, but on my last trip (the same trip I climbed Nervine) I thought it felt like solid 21. Perhaps Nervine is closer to 12 instead of my suggested 14.

Perhaps the one route that could definitely drop a grade is Fingernickin. I've rarely onsighted 24, yet alone as easily as I did on that (it felt more like 22 as opposed to 24).

Ronny

16-Aug-2006
9:18:43 AM

Yeah I think Finger Nickin' is the big robust red equivilent of Orestes - everyone knows its easy, but no one wants to admit it cause it was many people's first 24. My feeling is its closer to 23 - things often feel easy when you onsight them Simey.

I actually think the grades are a bit all over the place at Moonarie. This is probably because some routes are repeated regularly, while others are almost never repeated, and previous guide book editors have probably been more inclined to record the details as the first ascentionist saw them rather than the current consensus. (Flying Buttress/Hangover Layback is a good example) So it adds to the 'rep' when people who only go there occasionally stumble on one of the stout numbers - but there's actually plenty of soft ticks around if you know where to look for them.

There are 36 messages in this topic.