The opposite is the case. Nothing to do with control and guidebooks, but keeping a good relationship with the landowner and keeping access to the cliff open. I had a conversation with the landowner yesterday and he is still very concerned about liability for accidents. He is also concerned about litter, fire and the occasional dipstick who brings their dog to the crag. His stance is that ALL CLIMBERS ARE TRESPASSERS on his property and he is just turning a blind eye to it. I have put him in contact with Gordon Brysland to allay his fears of litigation, but nevertheless, we are technically trespassing. So Doug, just stay out of it as well as the CCT - we went to alot of trouble negotiating access and we are lucky to have access to Hillwood in the first place. Your attitude could potentially stuff it up for everybody.