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THE AUSTRALIAN RE, RETRO-BOLTING OPEN FORUM 18-Apr-2004 At 8:46:42 PM stinkingoat

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I used to be Bitter & Twisted but then I realised " I'm a negative creep and I'm stoned" (thanks Kurt).

Which point to start on?
E grades even though I thought this was a bolting forum. Ewbank takes into account protection (difficulty in placing. distance between and soundness[which in my opinion is if its crap then dont put it in])

Example: Serpentine originaly grade 31 as Malcom did it ground up putting in all runners on lead. (which I believe still awaits a true red point second ascent) But subsaquent ascents the protection was put in on abseil and whilst dogging it, hence it's grade of 29.

This assumption that an E grade in front of a number would some how magically give the climber an idea of the seriousness of a route is false. E grades can mean any number of things, yes it can denote big fall or ground fall potential but also how stenuous the route may be or how pumpy and fiddly the gear is to place.

Example: Using another HB route, Welcome to Barbados. Ewbank 29 ( which still awaits a second ascent with protection in place let alone putting all runners in on lead!) E grades it would be E8 5c or as you suggest E8 24-25. Get the picture or do I have to spell it out further. If you get to the bottom of a climb and look up and have no idea of what you are about to get into then you have no business being there in the first place.

The thing is that grades in the gym and grades in the real world do not coralate, and I think this is where the vast majority of the problem lies. The person who can do the blue route at which ever gym which is graded 24 gets out onto real rock pumps out half way up an 18 (because placing pro takes time and energy) falls off and strips all his gear and goes to hospital. (true story) There for, in his mind its an unsafe route.

It takes relatively little time and energy to safely climb the blue route in the gym, especially when your out to impress, but years to climb to the same technical ability on "Rock Climbs" (there is no such thing as trad climbing!!).[Rock Climbs can have bolts.

As for bolting D Minor I am assuming your post (hex) was just to see what sort of reaction you could stir up. I could go on but cant be stuffed. But I would however get my appathetic arse of the couch and go and chop them.

Other thoughts, Nobody is forcing you up there. Why not just top rope it if all your interested in is the moves? (that would require setting up an anchor which may involve runner placement.

P.S. If the latest hard man or woman cranking the desperates can only lead 14 on natural gear does this still make them good climbers??? (another true story)