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General Climbing Discussion

Author

Ascending/Abseilling

kaleshnikov

25-Aug-2007
10:37:00 PM

Can anyone help out with some advice
I'll keep this as short as possible
Found a 180 mtr north facing granite cliff with the only practicle access being to rap in.
Managed to beg/steal/borrow a 200mtr static rap line.
I have only ever prussiked shortish distances up dynamic ropes, ( out of mineshafts ect)
As far as ascending a fixed line, what is the best, quickest method using mechanical ascenders ie jumar to foot sling and a chest ascender or 2 jumars and 2 footloops?
Mechanical ascenders and dynamic ropes would not be a good thing I imagine?
Tying in to the rap line as a backup to the ascenders would be stupid as shockloading a static line from even a short fall would surely break me in half?
Anyway hope someone gets the gist of what I am after,also is the weight of a 200mtr line going to be a hassle to rap down with a fig 8 or a friction belay device?
Just getting organised now for when the snow melts and I can get back in there!

tastybigmac

25-Aug-2007
10:45:40 PM

that sounds horrible. why would you choose to jug up 180 meters of rope?

Will P

25-Aug-2007
10:49:17 PM

I'm sure you'll be inundated with advice if you tell us the location!

Kaleshnikov

25-Aug-2007
11:00:31 PM

Its a 2hr thrash in to the bottom, 10 min thrash to the top, I Imagine I will hate jugging by the end of summer,

Paul

26-Aug-2007
9:43:45 AM

is the weight
>of a 200mtr line going to be a hassle to rap down with a fig 8 or a friction
>belay device?

Anything over about 100m the weight of the rope starts have a reasonable breaking effect, meaning that you need to lift some of the rope weight off the break end of the rope to allow decent. This can be a real pain, to ovoid this problem have the rope in a rope bag hanging bellow your harness.

The bigger the decent the more heat will be generated by your friction device. Most figure eights and belay devices are not advised to be used for decents of more than 60m because of the heat generated. For a 180m meter jump like you are planing you will need to use a devise like a "whale tale", "gold tale" or "large rapel rack". You will need something with a reasonable amount of area to disperse the heat generated to prevent damage to your rope.

AlanD

26-Aug-2007
10:57:55 AM

You might want to look at a book, I thing it's still in print periodically called "Single Rope Technique" by Neil Montgomery

The quickest way to ascend this type of distance using ascenders involves 3 ascenders in a set up called rope walking. But leap frogging is probably easier to set up initially.

Static rope is a must for this type of distance as it's easy to set up a bouncing effect which can cut through a rope very easily if the rope rubs anywhere on the rock above. I'd still personally put in some rebelay points to limit the bouncing, but crossing rebelays is something you need to learn to do.

As Paul mentioned, forget the figure 8 and use an in-line descending device like a rack or whale tail. Even still, with 200m of rope below, you'll almost be pushing the rope through the descender initially.

Paul

26-Aug-2007
11:42:02 AM

>The quickest way to ascend this type of distance using ascenders involves
>3 ascenders in a set up called rope walking. But leap frogging is probably
>easier to set up initially.

There are instrustions on how to do this in the petzl sport catalogue

Macciza

26-Aug-2007
3:23:28 PM

Frog method (not 'leap' frog) would probably be most economical if it is really steep or overhanging.
Step method is probably better for slabby-er stuff. Try both to see the difference . Either way leave
yourself plenty of time before dark so you don't get caught out.
Also as mentioned, you really should set some rebelays - either off gear or with bolts - then, if you
place them carefully you will have belays for the climb out, as well as making it safer when rapping or
jugging as it isolates sections of rope and lets your mate rap down/jug up right away after you get onto
the next rope. It also means that you don't need the 200m rope - 4 x 50-60m ropes could work far
better and could be dealt with easier.
Perhaps you really should get someone who has done this sort of thing before to show you how to rig
and manage it all, or at least make you realise that you have the makings of an epic here.
Cheers and good luck

belayslave

26-Aug-2007
9:46:34 PM

The others have already mentioned the various styles that are possible for ascending.

I'll just add my voice to the chorus suggesting that you hook up with someone who's undertaken
something like this before. It has the sound of an epic in the making unless you head in there with the
proper plan, and knowledge to execute it.

Sounds like fun though!

Don't suppose you'll share the location, or even some pics of this location?

wallwombat

26-Aug-2007
10:02:24 PM

I wish I could find a 180 m granite cliff!

Kaleshnikov

27-Aug-2007
10:16:43 PM

Thanks for all the advice, I will be back in there at the end of september, the rebelays sounds like the go, as I am going to set it up for bolted belays anyway. I will be dragging in a fair bit of help, ( if only to get my fat arse hauled up the overhanging first third of the face). As for the location, I will post photos after the first weekend I get back there, It is fairly remote and I wouldnt want to send people that far into the bush if it turns out to be a heap of crap, I hiked into the bottom before winter to check out the main face which looked ok, overhanging to start with then vertical wall to the top with a fairly decent roof near the top. The vertical section seems to have a crack sytem linkable to the roof then it splits, one around and one directly through the roof.
It sounds good but could be absolute rubbish. As for having an "epic", for some reason that seems to happen every time I touch rock. Lightning, storms, falcons , snowfall , darkness, dropped gear are all pretty normal for me, so this should be no different.

Will P

27-Aug-2007
10:31:50 PM

If that's the case, if you epic everytime you climb, then purely for the sake of safety, you should certainly tell us where you're going. And the best access to the base. Maybe GPS coordinates, or at least a map reference. Just looking out for you buddy!

dilbster

5-Sep-2007
7:03:16 AM

Photos would be a nice touch too!

IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Sep-2007
9:54:54 AM

kaleshnikov wrote;
>As far as ascending a fixed line, what is the best, quickest method using mechanical ascenders ie jumar to foot sling and a chest ascender or 2 jumars and 2 footloops?

At risk of repeating what others have already said …
Long overhangs ‘frog’ method is quickest-safest.
Everything else ‘ropewalking’ method is quickest.
I use 3 ascenders as a combination of the two methods. Can easily switch between as required, and the third ascender makes negotiating obstacles (includes the top-out!), easier and safer.

>Mechanical ascenders and dynamic ropes would not be a good thing I imagine?

It is OK once the rope stretch is taken up. You will find that you jumar on the spot till your bodyweight achieves this. Beware rub points on your rope higher up. Anticipate and use rope protectors or re-belays at these locations on the descent.

>Tying in to the rap line as a backup to the ascenders would be stupid as shockloading a static line from even a short fall would surely break me in half?

Depending on your system it is still better than taking the whole plummet. I sometimes use a running clove hitch (loosely tied off) and shortened often.

>Anyway hope someone gets the gist of what I am after,also is the weight of a 200mtr line going to be a hassle to rap down with a fig 8 or a friction belay device?

Doubt you will find a 200 m dynamic rope unless it is a special order.

In-line abseil devices are definitely better, as well as variable friction devices as mentioned above.
The rope in a bag trick is OK, but better if suspended with a long sling off your abseil device, ie the weight comes on it directly; … not onto your harness thus cutting you in half between upward and downward tension/weight.

Re heat generated by abseil devices: ~ if you are using a fig 8 etc simply go slower and don’t let the heat build up.

Tandem jumaring is practical, but tandem abseiling is less so (but still possible if both on the one device). Re-belays facilitate both enormously.

Backup your main anchor, especially if applying these sorts of loads, and (again) anticipate/protect the rub-points.

AlanD

5-Sep-2007
8:29:16 PM

Part of the issue with using figure 8's rather than an in-line descender is they put a twist into a rope. If you're free hanging during your ascent or decent, a twisted rope will cause you to spin, on a long overhang this can get really annoying. Addition, figure 8's may not provide an adequate heat sink on a long descent even if you are travelling slowly.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Sep-2007
9:49:22 AM

I don't like fig 8's for the reasons you nominate AlanD and seldom ever use one at all. Have never used one on a descent longer than 70m. For general (often non-climbing), longer abseils I use a whaletail.

Additional considerations re use of a fig8 would be;
The greater difficulty getting clipped on with lifting a 200 m rope to get a bight of rope to pass through the device.

Initial difficulty in moving at all due to extra friction of rope weight below device.

More difficulty when lower on the abseil, due less ability to vary the descent speed (slower) to minimise heat build up! A newer (slick) rope would exacerbate this problem.

Re spinning on the rope, some might consider this fun, but I agree it can be annoying particularly when you are aiming at getting in to a certain point when the cliff/rope allows you to.

The twists that fig8 generate in a short rope are bad news to remove*, ... and would be much worse trying to remove from a 200m cord.
(*best achieved by allowing the rope to free hang after use, otherwise chasing the kinks out the tail often becomes a clusterjam).

There are 16 messages in this topic.