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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 21
Author
Arno Ilgner Clinic - 17th April 07

cliffhanger
15/03/2007
5:36:01 PM
For anyone that can't make it to the Australian Climbing Festival in the Blueys over Easter, or those that don't climb at Cliffhanger, we will be hosting the only Melbourne Clinic held by Arno. For those that don't know of him, he wrote "The Rock Warriors Way - Mental Training For Climbers".

The clinic is limited to 8 places (some already sold, and going quickly), it's a 4 hour clinic from 6pm to 10pm and it's $69 per person. All places must be prepaid to secure a spot. You can buy tickets at the gym or from our Online Store. If you can't make that date, he is doing some clinics in Sydney after the ACF, or we also sell his book and DVD!

This one will be worth attending!

Cheers,

Tim

brough
15/03/2007
9:35:06 PM
This is an interesting concept. I'm suspicious of it, but I don't want to cast aspersions on it, but I may.

I though one of the reasons for going climbing, for many people, was, apart from just having fun, to learn skills such as problem solving, confidence, clear thinking under pressure and overcome mental obstacles. These aspects generally, both derive from and feed into the ascent of a rock face and success - you make it to the top safe and you get back down, safe.

For myself, I wonder what I would learn in a clinic for climbing-related mental performance. This assumes that there is learning of the skills that you would/should really learn from climbing, in my opinion.

I may be off the mark completely, because I feel the same way about those Anthony Robbins-type hype and confidence building seminars, while there are probably thousands of people out there who swear by such seminars.

I would imagine that anything someone told me in a clinic, be it under hypnosis or during meditation, would be thrown out the window as soon as that farking cam worked it's way out of the crack and my fingers and forearms started going to shit, as I looked at the pile of rocks at the bottom of the climb and felt brown runny stuff trickling down my leg.

As in life in general, but particularly in climbing, experience is the best teacher. Perhaps these sorts of seminars smoothe and facilitate the experience-building process?

This type of seminar would attract a different sort of climber than me. I don't think they're wrong. However, I would like it if someone without a vested interest could convince me I'm wrong.

Cheers brough

Macciza
16/03/2007
12:58:56 AM
Hey Brough

Honestly mate, most climbers , including some very good climbers, have more to gain through mental
training then physical training - The brain is the most important muscle for climbing. Wolfgang Gullich.

Check out his web site , download some newsletters etc Ignore the hippy shit if you like but check it
out,
But you need to train your mind to get effects, just like with excercise - and it can be difficult.
Most people are limited far more through there thoughts and fears than through strength - most crack
under pressure and create mental obstacles or rely on exceessive physical support
Skip some clips on your next climb, take less draws - how do you feel? Plug some gear instead of
clipping a ring, solo something really easy - pay attention to your mental state.
Practise some of these and other things and next time that cam falls out you will relax because you
know worrying won't help, a surge of focus and engagement will overcome you, you'll take a deep
breath and looking down for the best footers establish equilibrium in your position, calmly evaluate the
situation, before smiling down at your belayer and reversing the moves to replace the gear then rest
and crank on to the top for that fine onsight feeling. It's just like soloing but with a rope.

Considering the price of climbing gear in general his clinics pretty cheap and wil do more for your
climbing then a new cam, 2 biners or few trips to the gym, It is excellent value.

Cheers Mate
simey
16/03/2007
9:14:35 AM
I don't think you need to make climbing more dangerous to exercise your mind.

And if a cam falls out below you, it sounds like you need to spend more time placing gear properly rather than doing this...

>a surge of focus and engagement will overcome you, you'll take a deep breath and looking down for the best footers establish equilibrium in your position, calmly evaluate the situation, before smiling down at your belayer and reversing the moves to replace the gear then rest and crank on to the top for that fine onsight feeling.



tnd
16/03/2007
9:52:40 AM
brough - you might be ok, but the mental aspect of climbing is what holds a lot of climbers back. They climb well on top rope or second but wobble when they get a metre above their gear. Some will eventually overcome this with continued exposure to leading, but most get stuck in a rut. Therefore mental training away from the crag can be incredibly beneficial.

Macca is pretty well spot on, although as simey says I'm not sure I agree with skipping bolts or soloing to get rid of the wobbles.

muki
16/03/2007
10:21:45 AM
I recomend repeatedly jumping off well above the gear, this will after some time develop an ability to deal
with the runouts you get on lead! this imersion technique is fantastic for desensitization,and will leave
you with a strong head and able to deal with bad pro as well, just look down past the bad gear to the good
gear that will eventually hold your fall and go with that as the estimated landing zone! :)

cruze
16/03/2007
10:47:47 AM
That is a good theory bomber. I would say it is a great method, so long as you take a few things into consideration before getting too 'immersed'.

You assume that the fall will be relatively clean. I say this because repeatedly taking bad/painful falls is a sure fire way to turn a person off climbing altogether. So, with that assumption, let me make another few. Clean falls routinely require the climbing to be relatively steep (unless you traverse a lip etc). Steep climbing is generally pumpy to hang around and place gear on. Rushing gear placements because of being pumped does not encourage sound gear placements by inexperienced climbers. Net effect - inexperienced climbers looking down at marginal gear immersing themselves in a potentially dangerous setting.

Just something to be aware of, and of course it depends on where you are climbing - whether the rock is good, gear is good, belayer is good, etc.

Other options might be: climb on good quality bolts until you feel reasonably confident moving smoothly above the gear and/or try aiding a few crack climbs.

Macciza
16/03/2007
12:29:43 PM
On 16/03/2007 simey wrote:
>I don't think you need to make climbing more dangerous to exercise your
>mind.

Hang on, I never said 'make it more dangerous' bur there it is - poor mental training makes people
automatically assume skipping clips etc makes things more dangerous when it might not be.

>And if a cam falls out below you, it sounds like you need to spend more
>time placing gear properly rather than doing this...

Did you read the initial post ? I was simply offering an alternative to the initial 'freakout' response,
which most people have with gear that is still in..

Macciza
16/03/2007
1:09:09 PM
Practice falls can be good but don't get too used to them or you can end up jumping off when things
get hard rather than commiting. You still need to be able to fall for real. One suggestion is to simply
eliminate 'take' from your vocabulary. This helps in more ways than just falling.

'Clean' falls are easy - short of clear objective dangers like ledges, corners, sharp rock etc. Good
belayers providing dynamic belays with proper slack in the system make falls safe. It does not need to
be steep. Unfortunately the modern gym-bred fear-based sport belay methods often involve the belayer
short-roping the leader smack into the wall whilst a dynamic belay would drop them down. You can get
clean falls on steep slabs, vertcal walls and slightly overhanging walls quite easily.

It's quite weird that there 'perception' of safety (short falls) makes it more dangerous whilst thinking
that longer (and safer) falls are more dangerous.
simey
16/03/2007
1:21:34 PM
The best mental training you can do is to do loads of climbing and push yourself to the point of falling on well-protected routes. But the emphasis should be on placing the best protection you can whenever it is available. And if you do this you will eventually improve your stamina, technique and your ability to relax, recover and think clearly under pressure. All these things are interlinked and they take time to develop.

If you blow a few routes because you get massively pumped placing too much gear... who cares? You are staying safe and over time your judgement on these matters will improve.




Macciza
16/03/2007
1:36:53 PM
On 16/03/2007 simey wrote:
>If you blow a few routes because you get massively pumped placing too
>much gear... who cares? You are staying safe and over time your judgement
>on these matters will improve.
>

Yeah, some routes just aren't for everyone/others;-} so if you are 'blowing routes' it would probably be
better to just do some other stuff until you are ready.
simey
16/03/2007
2:52:09 PM
On 16/03/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Yeah, some routes just aren't for everyone/others;-} so if you are 'blowing routes' it would probably be better to just do some other stuff until you are ready.

It doesn't matter if you are not ready for some routes, providing you can tackle them with a degree of safety. The beauty of pushing yourself in climbing is the unknown outcome and the experiences gained. Even if you don't get to the top, the adventure, the journey, whatever mumbo-jumbo you want to call it, can be a lot more significant than just filling your guidebook with ticks.

It depends how you want to measure your climbing and what you want to get out of it.





Macciza
16/03/2007
3:12:22 PM
On 16/03/2007 simey wrote:
>
>It depends how you want to measure your climbing and what you want to
>get out of it.
>
Some measure it against the routes already up but find them intimidating the way they were put up.
Some people need the mental training in order to get up the routes (that they are physically capable of)
that others have put up.

I think the Ilgner clinic would be excellent for a lot of climbers if they have an open mind.

Zebedee
16/03/2007
7:39:05 PM
On 16/03/2007 Macciza wrote:
>I think the Ilgner clinic would be excellent for a lot of climbers if
>they have an open mind.
I've got a closed mind. Otherwise all that hippy sh1t just flows in. Then again $70 is cheap in a lot of cases mumbo jumbo costs a lot more.

brough
16/03/2007
10:23:36 PM
I can see how the clinic may be helpful in the context of physical performance and movement. I mean, psychology is an important part of all sports and a critical part of elite performance-based sports. Athletes "psyche up", get in the "zone", are "on fire", "forget themselves", are "so focussed they weren't aware of anyone else in the race". Bruce Lee summed it up with a quote (I'm going from memory) "the greatest possible hindrance to the proper execution of physical activity is consciousness of self". I agree with the quote. Obviously a clear mental focus is required for proper performance. Tiger Woods has undergone intense mental training and "programming" since a very early age. For example, two golfers may be very physically alike, have the same experience but one consistently nails birdies, the other chokes - it's a mental thing.

In a climbing context, I've blown many a boulder problem because just at that last fraction of a moment before I connect with the hold, uncontrollably, a thought has entered my mind and it's affected how I position my hand, or leg, or something, and I've blown it.

All my worst bingles while lead climbing on naturallly protected or run-out routes I can attribute to key factors such as inexperience, lack of stamina (pumping out while trying to place gear) and poor route selection (related to inexperience).

The long and short of this is I speculate that this may be something that may be more beneficial for the performance/movement specific end of the spectrum and less about the fear/controlling fear, end of the spectrum.

I think Mentzy summed it up - experience, stamina, strength = confidence = control of fear and anxiety in a stressful situation. Following on from that, if I'm scared shitless, it's likely for a good reason.

That said, I should really sign up for this clinic and then I'll know what the deal is.

cheers brough

Cliffhanger
19/03/2007
4:48:59 PM
Hi All, my apologies to Christian at The Lactic Factory, evidently he is also running a clinic on the 16th (The Monday) if our night is no good to you.

Cheers,

Tim

jkane
20/03/2007
4:21:44 PM
Arno's book is available for VCC members to borrow from our club library. Come along to a club meeting if you want to borrow a book from the library. There's also a review of the book (by me) on the VCC website.

http://www.vicclimb.org.au/Site/index.php?location=downloads

In the name of transparency, it may be worth pointing out that the club received no payment for this review, just a free copy of the book for the club library and I tried to be as objective as possible.

RJC
20/03/2007
5:21:32 PM
Pearls of wisdom in a sometimes crock of shit activity that passes for climbing these days...nicely put Simey.

Cliffhanger
23/03/2007
9:43:12 AM
Only 2 spots left people!

Cliffhanger
28/03/2007
7:30:55 PM
Hi All,

We now HAVE enough interest, and have confirmed Arno for a Second Clinc on 18th of April. So if you missed out on 17/4, please call us at 13 000 CLIMB or book online . This clinic must be PREPAID to reserve a spot.

As of 4/4/07 at 2:30pm, there were 4 places left for the 18th.

Cheers and thanks for the support,

Tim

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