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Gris Gris banned at Sydney Indoor 6-Jul-2006 At 4:28:58 PM garbie

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On 5/07/2006 cliffhanger wrote:
>mmmmmm..... any thread involving gyms seems to generate very long threads,
>a bit of interest and quite a lot of opinions - so here's my two bits worth
>too!!!
>
>I guess it wasn't a kneejerk reaction (given the 2 incidents) but I think
>it's a COP OUT!
>
>Yes there are lots of opinions, but porbably as Kezza, Red, Dalai and
>Neil have mentioned, it's really a BELAYER (human) issue not a device issue
>and I believe it is seriously a SUPERVISION issue.
>
Saying its a belayer issue is like saying the use of machine guns is just an issue with the people who use them. In the right hands they're not dangerous, so why ban them for the general public. Its the combination of gun+triggerpuller thats dangerous. The analogy isn't perfect I know, there are probably better ones, but its the grigri+how its used that is the problem. You can't separate the two - if the combo is failing, and we dont want to ban leading, then banning the device is the next best thing.

How is it a cop out, Tim? Doing nothing would be a cop out.

As I have said, I'm NOT against auto-locking devices. The concept is great. It just happens that the grigri came along first & has been the first commonly used such device and it's design was a pretty good effort. Why do people assume its design is the ultimate in auto-locking devices? Was the Model T the ultimate in car design? I've used one for years (a grigri that is), although have never been entirely happy with it. But how often has a new "invention" been perfect first time round? Because climbing is a small sport with a small market, its taken a while for some next generation products to come along - we're seeing some now. But what were the chances the grigri would be the perfect auto-locker first time around? I still maintain that its hard to use as the manufacturer recommends. That means lots of people can't or just don't learn how to use one properly. Have a look at people using one & count how many use it exactly as recommended.

So when examples of grigri's "saving" someone are given, they are examples of auto-locking devices saving someone. They dont support the use of a grigri in particular.

>Yes Lead Climbing was banned at Cliffhanger, albeit temporarily a few
>years back. The ban was in place to allow us to do the following:
>- Put in place a new systems based approach to managing lead climbing
>in the gym, which consisted of:
>- Make all Lead Climbers complete a new Waiver Form specifically for Lead
>Climbing,
>- Give all lead climbers an updated copy of our Lead Climbing Rules,
>- Re-test all Lead Climbers for proficiency (and on which device they
>were tested, including verifying use of Grigri if needed).
>
>We now use this information as part of our Lead Climbing Procedure - this
>involves printing customers lead climbing "status" on their membership
>card, we then issue them a Lead Climbng Pass which they must Hang on their
>harness while lead climbing or belaying (and return at the end of the session).
>
We have a similar system in place.

>We only have a limited number of these Lead Passes, which therefore controls
>the number of patrons that can lead climb at any given time - therefore
>allowing ADEQUATE SUPERVISION of these patrons. If we have limited staff
>on a particular night, we can reduce the number of available passes to
>ensure safety.
>
This isn't a bad idea, Tim. But can your supervisors be in the right place at the right time to spot someone threading the gri-gir wrong or thumbing the cam while facing the other way? Sure supervision is necessary, especially if you allow tricky devices like grigri's to be used, but what ratio do you think is enough to spot every mistake as its being made?
>
>People Lead climbing at Cliffhanger now pay a $1.50 Lead Climbing Levy
>(effective July 1st 2006) in addition to their entry fee, unless they have
>a prepaid membership of some form. Anyone found belaying dodgily automatically
>looses their lead climbing status and is prohibited from leading in the
>gym again.
>
Your insurer charges extra to cover lead climbing? Hope they all dont do it. But what about the topropers? They should be getting in for less now since the insurer is charging you less for them?