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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Option A 7
13% 
Option B 47
87% 

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 37
Author
When is an Onsight an Onsight

LittleMac
5/05/2005
10:35:41 AM
Which of the following do you think constitutes an onsight ascent. We are talking about the diffference between a flash and onsight ascent here. And I suppose it would be fair to add that this debate was sparked from a rather high end sport climb discussion.


Option A) Continuous ground up ascent. Inspection from the ground, no previous beta, gear (draws etc) has been pre placed.

Option B) Continuous ground up ascent. Inspection from the ground, no previous beta, gear (draws etc) placed on lead.


Please feel free to make comment on this topic as well. Note this poll has stemmed from the debate on the Japanese Ticking Machine and Quickdraws Stolen .......threads (see those threads if you are interested)


LittleMac
5/05/2005
10:44:51 AM
On 5/05/2005 dalai wrote:
>I was waiting for someone to bring up the whole draw onsight flash arguement.
>
>Once again from the ICC rules for an Onsight competition
>
>3.3.7 The following safety precautions shall be observed in the equipping
>of routes:
>a) Each protection point to be used during a round of a competition shall
>be equipped with a quickdraw with a karabiner to which a competitor shall
>connect the rope.
>
>Draws in place, still an onsight.

On 5/05/2005 LittleMac wrote:
>Was this a competition though?? If not we are talking about someone showing up at a >site just like any other climber (albeit a freak climber with a camera crew) and >shouldn't they be subject to the same ethicla and moral guidleines as every one else. >I think that once again we have run into a familiar corner, elite climbing ethics versus >layman climbing ethics, I don't think anyone would give me an onsight for climbing >say Swinging at Araps if all the draws were already on.

>Look forward tp your thoughts. I miight start a poll on this.

The above is a small sample of the debate which has sparkd this poll. Hopefully this cleans up some of the deabte going on in other threads at the moment.

cruze
5/05/2005
10:52:09 AM
In Europe I have heard that a lot of the steep hard routes have fixed draws (maillons at the bolt, dogbone, biner). I guess if everyone that strides up to that route at any time of year has the same opportunity to have the same experience then I would say "nice onsight". Let the grades (and that is another totally different academic exercise) determine whether having draws pre-placed or not impinges on the difficulty of the climb.

On an aside, I have seen both in the flesh (slopin sleazin) and video (realization) hard climbers on hard routes intentionally skip clips to reduce the intensity of the experience - does that ever weigh into the whole debate? No, and I don't think it should.
dalai
5/05/2005
11:39:43 AM
Where is option C Draws insitu irrelevant??

LittleMac
5/05/2005
11:46:43 AM
I am assuming you are talking about draws that have been mailoned etc to the route in which case they would be considered to be permanent fixed protectiin and would not affect an onsight attempt.

I have realised whilst typing this that you may in fact be referring to draws which have been left on a route (ie Breathing Gasoline, of recent times) in which case for the true onsight you should remove the draws (or perhaps as someone else suggested remove them on lead, touch your harness and replace) for a true onsight ascent.

If you would like an Option C please clarify and I will happily add it for you.
dalai
5/05/2005
11:50:07 AM
Not talking about Mallioned draws. Just gear that is in place from someone else on the same climb...

..::- Chris -::..
5/05/2005
11:54:05 AM
I think it's a Flash Martin,

Although i heard ; ) that one of the hard 30+ climbs Garth onsighted he did varients of the climb which encompases parts of the route that he was rewarded the onsight....

Surely that makes it a flash.??

For instance can you onsight Zorlac at araps if you've done Slink'n leapoard ??

Cheers
Chris.
climbingjac
5/05/2005
11:57:32 AM
IMHO the rules are a little different for trad vs sport. A trad onsight requires placing, ground up. In the sport climbing world, it's more about the moves and pushing your limits etc. The clips are merely there to keep your skull off the ground. So I don't really split hairs about people claiming the onsight if the draws were already on the route. It would make it kind of hard in places like Centennial Glen in the Blueys where the routes are often real busy and you have to ask permission to catch a ride on someone else's quickdraws...
dalai
5/05/2005
11:57:44 AM
I guess its a matter we can agree that we disagree Chris and move on. More important issues in life to be concerned about...

LittleMac
5/05/2005
12:19:48 PM
On 5/05/2005 climbingjac wrote:
>IMHO the rules are a little different for trad vs sport. A trad onsight
>requires placing, ground up. In the sport climbing world, it's more about
>the moves and pushing your limits etc. The clips are merely there to keep
>your skull off the ground. So I don't really split hairs about people
>claiming the onsight if the draws were already on the route. It would make
>it kind of hard in places like Centennial Glen in the Blueys where the
>routes are often real busy and you have to ask permission to catch a ride
>on someone else's quickdraws...

IMHO and I seem to be having a lot of opinion on this matter (along woth Chris and Dalai), the rules shouldn't be different the fact remains that it is posible for draws to be placed on lead so a true onsight should be just that.

Come on people get your votes in the more we get the clearer the picture becomes.

Oh and Dalai I had another look at the video and I noticed that some of the draws are actually double draws (2 clipped together), it appears that the bolts are placed in such a way that a short draw would create drag. Is this beta or would the climber in question have jad someone else do the draws and just trust their judgement when it comes time to make the clip??
climbingjac
5/05/2005
12:24:45 PM
On 5/05/2005 LittleMac wrote:
>it is posible for draws to be placed on lead so a true onsight should be
>just that.

Yeah maybe, I'm just not that fussed when it comes to clipping bolts, since half the ethics have been removed by the mere presence of the bolts anyway.

itchyfingers
5/05/2005
2:00:32 PM
On 5/05/2005 climbingjac wrote:
>Yeah maybe, I'm just not that fussed when it comes to clipping bolts,
>since half the ethics have been removed by the mere presence of the bolts
>anyway.
how very true...but thats a whole nother debate in itself
;-)

master of drung
5/05/2005
3:57:48 PM
It's not even an ethical issue. Whether you clip your rope to a pre placed draw or battle to tie off an old piton with a tiny eyelet is surely pretty irrelevant to the climbing experience, one maybe harder than the other but either way it's boring compared to the actual climbing. So i would say, who cares which you do and who cares its called.

Super Saiyan
5/05/2005
4:24:51 PM
so what would u call it if u (the climber) sat there eyes tightly shut, while someone else put all the draws up, giving u no beta at all (because before u shut ur eyes u could see all the bolts), then u lead it all the way in one go... surely that would be an onsight...

manacubus
5/05/2005
5:33:38 PM
On 5/05/2005 master of drung wrote:
>It's not even an ethical issue. Whether you clip your rope to a pre placed
>draw or battle to tie off an old piton with a tiny eyelet is surely pretty
>irrelevant to the climbing experience, one maybe harder than the other
>but either way it's boring compared to the actual climbing. So i would
>say, who cares which you do and who cares its called.

Hmm, I disagree with almost every point you made there I think! Just goes to show ... what's that old adage about opinions? =)

RJC
5/05/2005
9:56:12 PM
Could be wrong, but I thought French Sport grades were graded for the draws already in place? In which case, we can have Fr onsight, Aus onsight, UK onsight, etc. etc. It's all a bit anal isn't it? I mean, is it onsight if it satisfies your criteria for B but is all chalked up - which probably makes more difference? Why don't we just compare the size of our, um, cars :-)
James
5/05/2005
10:24:41 PM
24 v 3...so far it seems that c-stone climbers don't care so much for competition rules, either that or the competition rules just aren't in touch with the 'climbing' world....
prb
6/05/2005
1:40:35 AM
I think "onsight" is ground-up trad, but unfortunately we don't have another word yet for first-try, no beta ascents of sport routes or prepared trad routes. I also think the old redpoint (putting draws on) / pinkpoint (draws already on) distinction was useful. Thus, IMHO:

Option A.
An onsight redpoint or pinkpoint (trad), or an onsight pinkpoint (sport).

Option B.
An onsight (trad) or an onsight redpoint (sport).

So I think both options could be called an onsight. Onsighting a sport route is fun, onsighting trad can be important to avoid injury, but you really want a successful onsight when you're free soloing.

steph
6/05/2005
10:51:50 AM
I think onsight refers to climbing a climb, first shot, no beta, not having watched anyone else do it, no takes and no rests. AND DEFINITELY NO TICKED HOLDS OR PREPLACED GEAR! but that's just my opinion and that's how I reckon the grading system works. a 21 is only a 21 if you're onsight leading it clean like the first ascender did.

nmonteith
6/05/2005
10:58:48 AM
But if you already know the grade of the route you already have some beta! True onsight should be nude, blind-folded first ascent at a virgin crag.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 37
There are 37 messages in this topic.

 

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