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Topping out vs lowering off (climbs & ethics?)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2004
12:37:24 PM

On 19/08/2004 nmonteith wrote on Crag & Route Beta (Archimedes principle / pythagorus theorem) thread:
>Archimedes (snip) The third looks like a crappy short roof thing which no-one really does.
>Most just rap off from the end of the 2nd pitch.

Is this part of a general sport climber mentality; ie short cuts across the whole spectrum (gear / topouts / convenience / etc)?

Do they then claim an ascent of it ??

Dear me, ... I must definitely be a prehistoric dinosaur, as getting to the top still 'counts' in my book.
If the top pitch/s is/are lesser quality it’s still part of the climb, and helps to highlight the quality/(lack of?) down lower.

Taking this concept one stage further, … I have for example, never fully understood the attraction in the 'sport climbs' at the bottom of Bungonia Gorge. IMO Taking the effort to get down there and then finishing no-where, while there is still so much wall above does not fit with my logic, no matter how 'sporty/quality' the route!

If someone like me comes along and gets up the sport climb named ‘X’ (aid or otherwise), then continues to the top (in this case adding maybe 4 pitches), do I get to call ‘their climb’ part of my own by simply naming mine ‘ABC’ or does it become renamed X-start to ABC?? (which I would do out of respect, ... though I’d try to make a pun of it).


nmonteith

19-Aug-2004
12:46:39 PM

Usually we rap off becasue the last pitches should never have been done in the first place!


HEX

19-Aug-2004
12:48:10 PM

Lots of questions here,bro --- but as a vague historic back-ground, there was some twead-hobnailboot-hemprope pommy dude circa in the 1930s, who usta rock-climb on a crag ,on the side of a knoll-hill-mountain,but wouldn't claim an ascent of any new/repeat ascent, unless he had climbed--->scrambled--->walked all the way to the summit each time...

Luv HEX


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2004
12:52:22 PM

Yay for the
>twead-hobnailboot-hemprope pommy dude

... Who was a minister of religion as well, if I recall my reading of history correctly.

=> another dimension: The 'spirituality' of top-outs?


nmonteith

19-Aug-2004
12:52:22 PM

on another note... there is now a tendancy to name and record individual pitches of mulit-pitch routes in sport areas.


shmalec

19-Aug-2004
12:53:37 PM

isn't this the same issue as the "what is it about bouldering that turns you on" thread you started. Ie its the action of climbing the moves thats important not the topping out.


HEX

19-Aug-2004
12:58:54 PM

sort-of but not-really...


nmonteith

19-Aug-2004
1:03:17 PM

The most obvious example is Serpetine @ Taipan. Most climbers don't lead the first nasty grade 24 pitch. They convince one person to lead it - fix a rope - then the hoards jug up to the belay so they can tick the second crux pitch.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2004
1:05:29 PM

On 19/08/2004 shmalec wrote:
>isn't this the same issue as the "what is it about bouldering that turns
>you on" thread you started. Ie its the action of climbing the moves thats
>important not the topping out.

Not at all, as it was others (the Boulderers) who implied that.

On 29/07/04 A5iswhereitsat said (from that thread);
>On 29/07/2004 Steve M wrote:
>(snip) after a while I find it boring. (snip) i don't find it nearly as
>personally satisfying as climbing. The setting is also generally far less
>enjoyable.
A5 replied
>Although I haven't done much bouldering I have had the same opinion.
>Theres nothing like a lot of air under your feet ...., but I am prepared to try bouldering a little more to >try and capture some of the essence of 'the move' etc that others refer to here.
& later on same thread A5;
>I can see the satisfaction in this as a one-off.

nmonteith
>on another note... there is now a tendancy to name and record individual pitches of mulit-pitch routes in sport areas.
They were all trad areas before sport climbing came along ... ! (Bungonia still is IMO)

BA is gonna have a fit when he is asked to retro edit the guidebooks to fit your scenario Neil !!


nmonteith

19-Aug-2004
1:07:51 PM

so you walk to the top of the Horn everytime you finish a route on the North Wall? ;-)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2004
1:22:47 PM

nmonteith said
>so you walk to the top of the Horn everytime you finish a route on the North Wall? ;-)
No, but I do prefer to finish climbs at their logical conclusion. Even recently @ Frog I demonstrated this ...

(From mank/choss thread) A5 said:
> As a connoisseur of choss I led on past the 'normal topout'-lower off from Condor >Gd12? (a short time prior to doing 'Shitpile') up the teetering blocks above; (this is a >REAL 'shitpile), to the lookout railing at the 'true summit' to that climb, and found the >untravelled ground quite enjoyable (mostly for that fact alone). Whats more, my Qld >partner with considerable Frog experience followed the route and contrary to his initial >protests ("The climb ends here!..." ), at my adding the 2nd pitch; also found he enjoyed it.

19-Aug-2004
1:50:16 PM

To answer the original question: usually I'll happily 'cut my losses' and rap off after 'the good bit' on a climb - eg the top half of Entertainer and Comic Relief now have moss/lichen regrowth above their anchors at 25m - and rightly so too IMO - climbers can have the good section down low, the moss can have the doddly finish

> I do prefer to finish climbs at their logical conclusion.

good luck at trying to get agreement on what that might be :)
perhaps its where the good climbing ends?!

While we're on Bungonia - what do you think is the "logical conclusion" to Strangeness and Charm? After the 5 classic pitches, you could do perhaps another 4 or 5 pitches of manky vegetated roped scrambling to 'the summit' - or, you could get on with life and rap off...


HEX

19-Aug-2004
2:03:13 PM

" Im going to start a topic with the title 'Aid climbing sucks balls
!'. You can then reply in a delightfully formal manner defending all aspects
of 'the experience'. The fact that i know f#ck all about aid climbing
has little to no merit. It is the internet, after all. !!! "

Yelled Brer Kent, as Brer A5 hurled the miss-che-vious wabbit, by the ears, back into the briar patch ...

The gob-smacked residents of Diddly-Dum-Diddly look on with shocked-amazement ...


HEX

19-Aug-2004
2:12:55 PM

Lock this topic right here, Neil ! --- what a classic ! --- it should be preserved as the shortest-living thread / wildest blue-flame-fart ever ' created '...

Luv HEX


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2004
2:22:39 PM

On 19/08/2004 WM wrote:
>good luck at trying to get agreement on what that might be :)
>perhaps its where the good climbing ends?!
or as BA suggested on another thread, where there is a natural break in the climbing (mega walk-off ledge etc).
>
>While we're on Bungonia - what do you think is the "logical conclusion" to Strangeness and Charm? >After the 5 classic pitches, (snip)

Its an 'unfinished' classic in my opinion.

The top part of that wall would no doubt have its moments, and for those who like to 'savour the moments' it would be reason enough to complete it. Some might say "It would clean up with traffic" ...
The only reason I havn’t done so is because I am not a skilled enough free-climber (yet) to get up to its present finish in the 'cave/solution’ hole !

Kent said;
>a5. Im going to start a topic with the title 'Aid climbing sucks balls !". You can then >reply in a delightfully formal manner defending all aspects of 'the experience'. The fact >that i know f#ck all about aid climbing has little to no merit. It is the internet, after all.

I am not trying to wind any* sport climbers up Kent. If I did not want to be flamed on, then I could hardly be sane by picking a topic where I am outnumbered by about 10,000:1 ?

(* I trust Neil has not taken my quoting him as a personal thing; ... just building on a baseline he touched on, as a starting point …).

I respect the climbs as they stand, its just that I don't necessarily agree (or understand), with them being 'unfinished' (IMO), and even more so when it appears many don't even complete the original/s as 'set'.
Its another point of view I am presenting; and believe it or (k)-not ... this was the majority point of view once!

Go for it! re: 'Aid climbing sucks balls !", I would be happy to contribute (agree/disagree/whatever)!!
Besides, I think that this topic, as well as your suggestion, are possibly more relevant to climbing than some of the banter that has been happening on other threads of late; … & to which I have also contributed inane stuff to.
---------------------------------------------
retro edit:

Ahh I just ‘clicked’ … Its probably the thread title that put you offside; … so I shall amend it from
Topping out vs lowering off (wimpy climber ethic?)
to:
Topping out vs lowering off (climbs & ethics?)
… as there is not enough character space to include a reference to historical context / convenience etc


HEX

19-Aug-2004
2:30:06 PM

Shot down in flames !!!
SHOT DOWN IN FLAMES !!!
Ain't it a shaaaame
to be
Shot down in flames !!!

Luv HEX , Kent & Bon --- ridin' on the Chockstone High-way ta hell...

dalai

19-Aug-2004
2:48:34 PM

Sorry A5, but starting a new topic with the title "Topping out vs lowering off (wimpy climber ethic?)" is quite condescending to many climbers and you must have realized that it would garner equally aggresive replies.

Would be the same as if someone (non aid climber) were to create a new topic with the title "What's with aid climbing (fat lazy climber ethic pulling on gear?)"

I am so sick of this debate/arguement/chest beating - sport vs trad vs bouldering vs mountaineering...

Just because you may not understand the attraction to a facet of the sport you have not experienced , doesn't make it of lesser value.


rhinckle

19-Aug-2004
3:03:20 PM

Topping out vs lowering off (wimpy climber ethic?)

lowering off???
you mean you don't downclimb?


HM33

19-Aug-2004
3:03:31 PM

here here dalai!

19-Aug-2004
3:15:13 PM

A5 said:
> present finish in the 'cave'/solution hole

for the record thats the 4th belay. Pitch 5, despite being easier, is fantastic airy climbing and thus the hole is not the "logical conclusion". OTOH above the 5th anchor is pure mank - so it's a very finished classic IMO!

to split a hair....its not just a sport climbers mentality: 'everyone' raps off below the top of trad routes, eg eternity/simpleton/entertainer/comic relief/chinese algebra/wasp etc. I think its great that the moss & lichen can reclaim the top of these routes (and similarly that many nowra routes stop below the top to protect the orchids).

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