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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 36
Author
Climbing protection for canyoning.
DMWdesign
29-Oct-2014
11:06:52 PM
In January I will be doing a couple of canyons in the Blue Mts. Both involve a short section of rock climbing to exit. The Guide Book says grade 10/11 and there is protection on the route. We will be using our static ropes.
Would it be OK to use quickdraws with say 600mm long nylon slings. I know we should be using dynamic rope, but extra weight etc etc

Stugang
29-Oct-2014
11:58:18 PM
Can you solo grade 10/11 comfortably?

If answer yes then go for ya life.

If answer no then get a clue. Do not lead on a static. A short fall can f--- you up.
Jim Titt
30-Oct-2014
5:25:18 AM
Iīd use standard draws and a fairly dynamic (weak) belay device like an ATC or just a waist belay.
mikllaw
30-Oct-2014
6:33:57 AM
what sort of protection?
As Jim said, a weak dynamic device, a figure 8 in sport mode is perfect, what do you use to abseil with?
johnpitcairn
30-Oct-2014
7:00:15 AM
Protection meaning bolts or protection meaning trad gear? Don't think I'd want to take a fall onto 60cm nylon and a static rope. How long is this "short" section? Take a short length of skinny dynamic rope...

ecowain
30-Oct-2014
7:58:07 AM
Depends which canyons you are thinking of.

If one of them is Butterbox, then pretty straightforward climbing 4m with two bolts, big ledge, then another 4m with two bolts, finishing on ledge with a high bolt anchor. Easy enough to pull on these bolts if you need to.

If Arethusa, climbing is a bit harder and longer with a bit of exposure. Bolts a bit more spaced but still generally in good positions. To be honest the "climbing" section of this exit is less intimidating for me than the waterfall hand over hand further up the exit canyon. If you decide on the Carne Wall exit, be prepared for a lengthy adventure.

Most people climb these exit routes with static ropes, a few slings and biners, and canyon footwear, but need to recognise the inherent risks in doing this. That said, you definitely see some folks sketching up these exits.

Which canyons were you planning on visiting?
Wendy
30-Oct-2014
8:25:16 AM
Why not just do the canyon on a dynamic rope? Consequences of falling on a static rope climbing - bad. Consequences of abseiling on a dynamic - minimal.

From a brief perusal of your posts, I'm gaining the impression you don't actually climb per se ... It's been 15 years or so since I last did any of these canyons, so I can't remember about them specifically, but I would suggest that most people don't start climbing on remote, multipitch 11s. The possibility of not actually being able to climb out is not that remote. I would suggest having a competent climber in your group and making sure everyone has had a go at climbing in a more sedate environment beforehand.

ecowain
30-Oct-2014
8:32:17 AM
Consequences of abseiling on a dynamic in a canyon?

Unless you are careful, you are likely to be a lot of wear and tear on the rope (read: trash it). The stretch can also make pull-downs challenging in a much worse way than pulling a rope on a cliff.

As Wendy says though, if you aren't a confident leader the dynamic is a good idea.

One step further, if you aren't a lead climber, find someone else to lead the exit pitches for you, or do another canyon.
Wendy
30-Oct-2014
8:46:28 AM
On 30/10/2014 ecowain wrote:
>Consequences of abseiling on a dynamic in a canyon?
>
>Unless you are careful, you are likely to be a lot of wear and tear on
>the rope (read: trash it). The stretch can also make pull-downs challenging
>in a much worse way than pulling a rope on a cliff.

So you might trash your rope and have to deal with a bit of rope stretch or you could take a lead fall on a static and trash yourself? I know which one i'd choose. I've never owned a static, so I have always use my old climbing ropes in canyons, and they have been fine.

Leading on a static is probably not really any better than soloing. Either way, if you come off, you are fûcked. It's just like going back to "the leader must not fall".

>
>As Wendy says though, if you aren't a confident leader the dynamic is
>a good idea.
>
>One step further, if you aren't a lead climber, find someone else to lead
>the exit pitches for you, or do another canyon.

ecowain
30-Oct-2014
8:56:46 AM
Sure.

I'm not getting into this any further.
DMWdesign
30-Oct-2014
9:00:19 AM
On 30/10/2014 ecowain wrote:
>Depends which canyons you are thinking of.

We are going up there for a short visit this time specifically to do Kanangra Main, and yes, Butterbox and Arethusa.

Thanks for info on the climb and bolt placements - it bears out what I have read on trip reports and route notes. Immortal outdoors say you need 6 extendable quickdraws for Arethusa. I will have to work on my arm strength for the H.O.H!

I am not a rock climber but a fairly competent scrambler, but it's hard to gauge how hard the climbing is.

To minimize costs on equipment that I will probably only use for these two canyons, I was thinking of wire gate karabiners and 600 length nylon (not dyneema) slings

would a 300 long sling be OK?

And rather than specially buy an ATC for belaying, use a munter hitch instead

there will be a party of 4 of us - all experienced canyoners and competent scramblers - but not rock climbers


Timfreddo
30-Oct-2014
9:34:21 AM
As Owain said above, most people just make use with the gear they would have had for the canyon. Theyre all short(ish) pitches, so putting your rope through one biner straight into the bolt (all of them are rings or fixed hangers) will be fine.
In the case of butterbox 4 carabiners and one of your Prussics (used as a foothold near the top) will do you. There's 2 ring bolts at the top so a sling to equalise and a biner for a munter to belay is fine)

Arathusa you probably want a couple more biners and maybe 2 or 3 slings for trees, belaying with minter os fine here too. As Owain said the crux of arathusa (except getting lost on walk in and out, very veauge track) is a 8m overhanging hand over hand up a very slippery waterfall, pretty much 2 or 3 pull ups with not much for feet.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
30-Oct-2014
9:39:24 AM
On 30/10/2014 DMWdesign wrote:
>On 30/10/2014 ecowain wrote:
>>Depends which canyons you are thinking of.
>
>We are going up there for a short visit this time specifically to do Kanangra
>Main, and yes, Butterbox and Arethusa.
>
>Thanks for info on the climb and bolt placements - it bears out what I
>have read on trip reports and route notes. Immortal outdoors say you need
>6 extendable quickdraws for Arethusa. I will have to work on my arm strength
>for the H.O.H!
>
Yes, ecowain & Timfreddo have given you the good beta.

>I am not a rock climber but a fairly competent scrambler, but it's hard
>to gauge how hard the climbing is.
>
As a generalisation from the Ewbank grading system, and my experience of introducing new climbers to outdoor climbing, most people in that category I have found tend to want a rope for anything grade 8 or above, particularly if there is any exposure involved.
Grade 10/11 can be serious for some, particularly if conditions are less than ideal for climbing it, ... read using wet canyoning gear amongst other things!

>To minimize costs on equipment that I will probably only use for these
>two canyons, I was thinking of wire gate karabiners and 600 length nylon
>(not dyneema) slings
>
>would a 300 long sling be OK?
>
>And rather than specially buy an ATC for belaying, use a munter hitch instead
>
>there will be a party of 4 of us - all experienced canyoners and competent
>scramblers - but not rock climbers
>
Keep an eye on the For Sale section of Chockstone. You can often get cheap second hand gear that would more than meet your need...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
30-Oct-2014
9:58:04 AM
On 30/10/2014 mikllaw wrote:
>As Jim said, a weak dynamic device, a figure 8 in sport mode is perfect,
>what do you use to abseil with?

Sport mode and figure 8 in the same sentence? ~> This does not compute within my old fashioned brain.

If you mean belaying sticht plate style through the small eye of a 'reverse-clipped to harness' 8, then that would work. If you mean belaying off an 8 in 'normal abseil mode' configuration, then I suggest that method is too sporty even for a static rope, unless the fall being caught is more a slump than a fall...
DMWdesign
30-Oct-2014
12:01:22 PM
On 30/10/2014 mikllaw wrote:
>what sort of protection?
I understand the protection is bolts

>As Jim said, a weak dynamic device, a figure 8 in sport mode is perfect,

>what do you use to abseil with?

DR5 Rappel Rack and the others in the party use Hydrobots
DMWdesign
30-Oct-2014
12:05:05 PM
On 30/10/2014 Timfreddo wrote:
>As Owain said above, most people just make use with the gear they would
>have had for the canyon. Theyre all short(ish) pitches, so putting your
>rope through one biner straight into the bolt (all of them are rings or
>fixed hangers) will be fine.
>In the case of butterbox 4 carabiners and one of your Prussics (used as
>a foothold near the top) will do you. There's 2 ring bolts at the top so
>a sling to equalise and a biner for a munter to belay is fine)
>
>Arathusa you probably want a couple more biners and maybe 2 or 3 slings
>for trees, belaying with minter os fine here too. As Owain said the crux
>of arathusa (except getting lost on walk in and out, very veauge track)
>is a 8m overhanging hand over hand up a very slippery waterfall, pretty
>much 2 or 3 pull ups with not much for feet.

Thanks Timfreddo for these useful tips
>
Jim Titt
30-Oct-2014
6:18:28 PM
On 30/10/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 30/10/2014 mikllaw wrote:
>>As Jim said, a weak dynamic device, a figure 8 in sport mode is perfect,
>>what do you use to abseil with?
>
>Sport mode and figure 8 in the same sentence? ~> This does not compute
>within my old fashioned brain.
>
>If you mean belaying sticht plate style through the small eye of a 'reverse-clipped
>to harness' 8, then that would work. If you mean belaying off an 8 in 'normal
>abseil mode' configuration, then I suggest that method is too sporty even
>for a static rope, unless the fall being caught is more a slump than a
>fall...

An 8 in normal mode is roughly comparable with an ATC in braking power though 8īs vary a lot in design, what is usually termed "fast 8" is where the bight of rope is up through the main loop of the 8 and then clipped into the HMS karabiner. Itīs a bit weak for lead falls unless the rope is fat and furry or stiff and the faller is light. Itīs good for dynamic lead belaying if you wear gloves which is why it was commonly used for competition/sport climbing and doesnīt twist the rope.

Stugang
30-Oct-2014
9:38:55 PM
Apologies for grumpy stu above. However in my defence I'm scarred from being at a crag when a dude got seriously fkd up taking a short fall on a static.

As for all the above good advice. Go for your life if you trust your belayer to be experienced enough to give you a soft catch on a static (if that's the case it makes me think you or your belayer should be able to solo 10). On the other hand maybe he's inexperienced enough to perfectly replicate a soft catch through incompetence.

Soloing 10 ain't a big deal. But face facts that is what you'll be doing.

Good luck.

shortman
30-Oct-2014
9:42:53 PM
What the f*ck is a hydrobot?

Stugang
30-Oct-2014
9:45:34 PM
On 30/10/2014 shortman wrote:
>What the f*ck is a hydrobot?

Kelly slater?

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 36
There are 36 messages in this topic.

 

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