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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
Author
Three Sisters declared an Aboriginal Place

kuu
20/01/2014
1:46:46 PM
MEDIA RELEASE Sunday, 19 January 2014

THREE SISTERS DECLARED AN ABORIGINAL PLACE

Heritage Minister Robyn Parker and Blue Mountains MP Roza Sage today announced the Three Sisters at Katoomba, in the Blue Mountains World Heritage Area has become the 98th Aboriginal Place to be declared in NSW.

Ms Parker said the declaration recognises the special cultural, social and historic significance of the site to the Aboriginal community.

“The three sisters are significant to Aboriginal culture as a mythical place of legends and stories,” Ms Parker said.


View the full Media Release here:
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/MinMedia/MinMedia14011901.pdf
maxdacat
20/01/2014
2:31:06 PM
Does this mean we can't climb it anymore?

:p

kuu
20/01/2014
2:52:13 PM
On 20/01/2014 maxdacat wrote:
>Does this mean we can't climb it anymore?
>
>:p

The Minister's Media Release makes no reference to climbing or any other recreational activity for that matter, but the formation has been closed to climbing for years (since 2000 I think) and my guess is it will remain off limits.

rodw
20/01/2014
4:27:13 PM
But that was because of erosion wasn't it...this will be a new reason ..either way I said at the time once closed it will never reopen..shame though as west wall was a great bushwalk to drag your non climbing mate up.

sbm
20/01/2014
11:13:50 PM
When I started climbing the Three Sisters were already long closed. Was the West Wall really that good or is it just old dudes reminiscing.

Never felt any real desire to climb in full view of Echo Point, honestly the sightseers can have it. There's plenty of other choss pagodas to scramble up.
Damo666
Online Now
20/01/2014
11:31:39 PM
On 20/01/2014 sbm wrote:
>When I started climbing the Three Sisters were already long closed. Was
>the West Wall really that good or is it just old dudes reminiscing.
>
>Never felt any real desire to climb in full view of Echo Point, honestly
>the sightseers can have it. There's plenty of other choss pagodas to scramble
>up.

Maybe just old dudes reminiscing. But it was a better line than Sweet Dreams, more climbing than Tom Thumb, and longer than either. It took you to a real 'summit', no easy thing in NSW. Access was an easy 20 min or so, getting off even quicker. Don't know what climbing in view of others has to do with anything.
Damo666
Online Now
20/01/2014
11:39:56 PM
On 20/01/2014 rodw wrote:
>But that was because of erosion wasn't it...this will be a new reason ..either
>way I said at the time once closed it will never reopen..

I naively thought they might re-open it again, a long time ago, but I squeezed in a couple of laps on it just before it shut, just in case. There was some erosion, but a lot of the traffic had grown through abseiling groups, though I seem to remember they shifted aside or moved altogether some time before the actual ban came in. It was getting ridiculous there, but not due to crazy climber numbers.

But your implication is right about once these things are done they're rarely reversed - whatever the reasons. All the more reason to push back against similar things as they (still) happen. I know we have to tread carefully and work with land managers and all that, but I often see too automatic acquiescence to authority nowadays. Sometimes they just limit things for convenience and ass-covering, denying reasonable use of public land, by the public.
BA
21/01/2014
10:53:14 AM
On 20/01/2014 rodw wrote:

>..shame though as
>west wall was a great bushwalk to drag your non climbing mate up.

Back in the late '60s and early '70s we used to take first timers to the Bluies up it for a "good day out". The most memorable ascent was in extremely foggy conditions where an 'up - down' compass would have been handy. No body was concerned with exposure during that ascent! (And it wasn't cold either.)
gfdonc
21/01/2014
4:40:33 PM
Can't we just declare it a climber's place, as well?
Ithomas
21/01/2014
7:41:52 PM
I have climbed all over the Sisters and you know what - it was always fun but also somehow revolting as well. The crowds, the trashy tourism, the crap rock, the junk, the suicides - what sensitive management, what respect! The best part of being there was the shiver generated by looking down over Echo Point, the sleepovers in the shelter sheds and looking across to the miles of cliffs in the distance. Considering that we can still look down Echo Point, still bivie around the sheds and still look over countless miles of unclimbed cliffs, surely we can find the generosity of spirit to hand back the Sisters to the people who not only saw them first but who carefully looked after them for millennia.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
21/01/2014
8:00:12 PM
I thought I saw a phasmid there once.































... but I might have been mistaken.



















On 20/01/2014 kuu wrote:
>snip
>“The three sisters are significant to Aboriginal culture as a mythical place of legends and stories,” (Heritage Minister) Ms Parker said.
>snip
... and the rest of Australia is???
Heh, heh, heh.
hero
24/01/2014
10:55:46 AM
Yes M9. All Australia is an Australian Aboriginal place.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
24/01/2014
2:43:47 PM
On 24/01/2014 hero wrote:
>Yes M9. All Australia is an Australian Aboriginal place.

The 3 x ??? in my post was meant to signify tongue in cheek, so I am glad you agree with my premise.
Since the 't-i-c' wasn't successful, maybe I should consider a career change & become a politician!
simey
25/01/2014
8:35:01 AM
On 20/01/2014 Damo666 wrote:
>On 20/01/2014 sbm wrote:
>>When I started climbing the Three Sisters were already long closed. Was
>>the West Wall really that good or is it just old dudes reminiscing.
>>
>>Never felt any real desire to climb in full view of Echo Point, honestly
>>the sightseers can have it. There's plenty of other choss pagodas to
>scramble
>>up.
>
>Maybe just old dudes reminiscing. But it was a better line than Sweet
>Dreams, more climbing than Tom Thumb, and longer than either. It took you
>to a real 'summit', no easy thing in NSW. Access was an easy 20 min or
>so, getting off even quicker. Don't know what climbing in view of others
>has to do with anything.

Totally agree Damo. In fact for a state that has stuff-all in the way of worthwhile easier routes, the loss of West Wall and the Mantleshelf to climbers is significant.

Both routes are better than Sweet Dreams and Tom Thumb (which is shit).

Hopefully overzealous bans like this (and The Fear at North Head) don't deter all climbers from using some discretion and experiencing these classic routes.
ithomas
25/01/2014
7:28:11 PM
Who is being over-zealous? Do the maths? How many documented routes are now unavailable to climbers because land has been given BACK to Aboriginal communities? Ten? Twenty? One hundred? How many documented climbs are there in Australia? Thousands and thousands. How many more climbs are out there waiting first ascents? Thousands and thousands. So, who is being over-zealous and small minded? It's certainly not the Aboriginal community! Get real climbers and try to show a bit of generosity. Maybe even get involved with your local indigenous community and offer to take young Koori's on a learn to climb weekend. How great would it be to have future Aboriginal elders understanding what a deep connection we climbers have with the landscape? Now that would be a win - win situation; but it would depend crucially on climbers being open, fair minded and having a vision which extends beyond the next climb.
simey
25/01/2014
10:54:54 PM
On 25/01/2014 ithomas wrote:
>Who is being over-zealous? Do the maths? How many documented routes are
>now unavailable to climbers because land has been given BACK to Aboriginal
>communities?

There are a shitload of potentially great, GREAT climbs that we are unable to climb due to land rights. Having climbed and walked a bit in the Northern Territory I have seen some brilliant routes that we can't access at places such as Uluru, Kata Tjutu, Kakadu, and parts of the Macdonnell Ranges. I haven't been to Western Australia, but I understand that that many parts of the Kimberly, as well as Windjana Gorge are off limits and would offer terrific climbing. I am not complaining, but simply pointing out that we don't always get our own way.

>Ten? Twenty? One hundred? How many documented climbs are
>there in Australia? Thousands and thousands. How many more climbs are out
>there waiting first ascents? Thousands and thousands. So, who is being
>over-zealous and small minded? It's certainly not the Aboriginal community!

Do any Aboriginal people really care if people are climbing the Mantleshelf and the West Wall on the Three Sisters? Maybe. Do I care when I visit some of the gorgeous waterholes in the Macdonnell Ranges and they are totally trashed with broken bottles and other rubbish from Aboriginal people. Well I do. I appreciate that there are a lot of issues at play here and that there are no easy answers, but I reckon respecting each others rights to access certain places and respecting the land should play a role for all parties.

>Get real climbers and try to show a bit of generosity. Maybe even get involved
>with your local indigenous community and offer to take young Koori's on
>a learn to climb weekend. How great would it be to have future Aboriginal
>elders understanding what a deep connection we climbers have with the landscape?

I have introduced all sorts of people to climbing voluntarily, but experience has taught me to be pretty realistic about the outcomes. And I strongly suspect that very few Koori's would give a rat's arse about going climbing. Climbing is an indulgent sport practiced by a very small minority of usually well-to-do. I would rather get involved with Kooris in the world of footy and share a common love and learn more about their background from that perspective as opposed to ramming climbing down their throats.

>Now that would be a win - win situation; but it would depend crucially
>on climbers being open, fair minded and having a vision which extends beyond
>the next climb.

Well you think taking Kooris climbing would be a win-win. I have my doubts. But if any Kooris were curious about climbing, then I would be more than happy to teach them all the skills. They might even get psyched to establish routes on some of those cliffs I mentioned. How would that all fit into this ethical debate?

Wendy
26/01/2014
8:51:04 AM
On 25/01/2014 simey wrote:

>
>There are a shitload of potentially great, GREAT climbs that we are unable
>to climb due to land rights. Having climbed and walked a bit in the Northern
>Territory I have seen some brilliant routes that we can't access at places
>such as Uluru, Kata Tjutu, Kakadu, and parts of the Macdonnell Ranges.
>I haven't been to Western Australia, but I understand that that many parts
>of the Kimberly, as well as Windjana Gorge are off limits and would offer
>terrific climbing. I am not complaining, but simply pointing out that we
>don't always get our own way.

I think a lot of these are off limits because of parks paranoia about climbing rather than aboriginal requests. Like the 3 sisters. If it was actually about respecting a traditional owner request to not climb on something, then parks would prevent any access to the 3 sisters and close the tourist route up uluru. I don't think the west wall was a great climb either. It was in a good location to a cute summit, for which you paid the price of dealing with a ton of tourists, then it was 50m of climbing in 300m of bushbashing and scrambling.

In all my wandering up north, I have mostly found the cliffs to be complete rubbish, and certianly Lou's exploration of the cliffs around the Pentecost found lots of rubbish. Winjana gorge was the only exception, it is sizable limestone cliffs that could have good climbing and I don't think anyone has every discussed climbing with the local people, but I would guess that as it is a busy tourist area, parks would ban climbing for that.

And it isn't just aboriginal people leaving rubbish around the country. I'd say it was a distressing amount of the people who go out there by the amount of crap at camping areas, picnic areas, roadsides, riverbanks, beaches and yes, even climbing areas which are probably not accessed by people who aren't climbing.
>
ithomas
26/01/2014
8:58:53 AM
Simey
What an appropriate topic for Australia Day. The shitload of climbs you mention in NT and elsewhere simply do not exist. Until a route is established it cannot be taken away or banned. There are lots of activities that are not easily conducted on Aboriginal land. It's not just climbing. To gnash your teeth over that is to call into question the rights of determination inherent in those land grants. You are right about there being no easy answers to the question of landscape degradation. Trashed campsites are one small but visible example but that pales into insignificance compared to the degraded cattle and sheep thrashed rangelands that you drive through anywhere from Port Augusta to Katherine - and who owns those stations? And what brain fade caused you to suggest that teaching people to climb is the equivalent of ramming it down people's throats? I guess you must think that the footy clinics organised by Kevin Sheedy are another example of ramming a sport down people's throats. Footy is a good example where a long and concerted effort by a few people, including Sheedy, has made enormous changes to how indigenous issues are perceived by the public. Ask the Australian of the Year if there is still racism in footy. Ask him if outdoor adventure activities were rammed down his throat or if he was stimulated and made to feel welcome because he had a very special Physical Education teacher (Norm Booth) at Horsham High School. Education and inclusiveness is the key. If, after being exposed to climbing, Aboriginal people wanted to climb on their own cliffs then that would be fine. It would not be a question of ethics. It would would simply be their decision.
zorro
26/01/2014
12:12:33 PM
Respect should work both ways.
kieranl
26/01/2014
12:35:07 PM
On 26/01/2014 zorro wrote:
>Respect should work both ways.
What exactly do you mean by that? On it's own it's a meaningless slogan.
Do you mean indigenous people don't do enough to return the respect paid to them by non-indigenous or vice-versa?

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 25
There are 25 messages in this topic.

 

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