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Are they really Safer Cliffs?


kuu

14-Feb-2013
3:04:08 PM

One of the, I assume, unintended consequences of the emergence and promotion of Safer Cliffs Australia (formerly Safer Cliffs Victoria) may have been the apparent assumption, by (predominantly?) newer entrants to the climbing scene, that BOLTS = SAFE and therefore NO BOLTS = UNSAFE. This would seem to rule out any likelihood of these climbers embracing the notion of Trad climbing.

Despite having a history reaching back more than 50 years in this country (and longer elsewhere) does Trad climbing need its proponents to do a better Sell Job in getting the message across to newcomers to the recreation?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Feb-2013
3:10:33 PM

On 14/02/2013 kuu wrote:
>One of the, I assume, unintended consequences of the emergence and promotion
>of Safer Cliffs Australia (formerly Safer Cliffs Victoria) may have been
>the apparent assumption, by (predominantly?) newer entrants to the climbing
>scene, that BOLTS = SAFE and therefore NO BOLTS = UNSAFE. This would seem
>to rule out any likelihood of these climbers embracing the notion of Trad
>climbing.
>
>Despite having a history reaching back more than 50 years in this country
>(and longer elsewhere) does Trad climbing need its proponents to do a better
>Sell Job in getting the message across to newcomers to the recreation?
>

No, but educating new arrivals with a certain level of appreciation of the history of the sport they are getting into, and one which they may one day aspire to the cutting edge of regarding it's physical and mental limits, is something that could be addressed better by the likes of Internet Forums and Magazines such as Rock...

Thanks for raising the issue kuu, as I note that you are doing your bit!
;-)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Feb-2013
3:22:27 PM

>BOLTS = SAFE and therefore NO BOLTS = UNSAFE.

and LOTSANDLOTSANDLOTS OF BOLTS = ?
☻

In my opinion it is not the cliffs, nor the presence or absence of bolts that is safe or unsafe, but instead it is the attitude of some climbers who expect that climbing is a safe past-time when they disengage* their full engagement with it, regardless of cliff and the amount and type of protection available.

(*This diminishes sound decision making, and gravity is quick to correct this indiscretion!).

bones

14-Feb-2013
3:25:15 PM

On 14/02/2013 kuu wrote:
that BOLTS = SAFE and therefore NO BOLTS = UNSAFE. >

No, but BAD BOLTS = UNSAFE, which is I guess the focus of Safer Cliffs

kieranl

14-Feb-2013
3:27:28 PM

And it is "Safer Cliffs", not "Safe Cliffs". There is a difference.


nmonteith

14-Feb-2013
3:35:29 PM

On 14/02/2013 kieranl wrote:
>And it is "Safer Cliffs", not "Safe Cliffs". There is a difference.

Indeed Kieran. I choose the name for that very reason! It was actually called Rebolt Victoria originally - but I decided to change the name so the inflammatory word "bolt" wasn't part of the name. The organization's aim is to replace old rusty hardware.

Gluey

14-Feb-2013
3:40:21 PM

As a relatively new climber (~2 years) and young climber (21) I could be seeing things through a naive perspective. Having said that, I think those who make the assumption that trad climbing is unsafe would be somewhat an "unsafe*"/quick fix climber themselves. To assume that trad is unsafe rather then researching gear/ reading books/ watching videos only serves as proof that their actions are short sited/ lazy. It doesn't take very long to speak to someone to find out where the risks lie in both sport and trad so I'd hazard a guess that those that aren't aware aren't interested.

*if they were to climb trad routes


kuu

14-Feb-2013
3:44:16 PM

On 14/02/2013 kieranl wrote:
>And it is "Safer Cliffs", not "Safe Cliffs". There is a difference.

Agreed!

But perhaps that subtle difference is lost on some people?

;-)


kuu

14-Feb-2013
4:04:02 PM

On 14/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:

(snip)

>Indeed Kieran. I choose the name for that very reason! It was actually
>called Rebolt Victoria originally - but I decided to change the name so
>the inflammatory word "bolt" wasn't part of the name. The organization's
>aim is to replace old rusty hardware.

"The organization's aim is to replace OLD RUSTY HARDWARE."

So can we correctly assume that at least some of your posts on the "Bolting at The Horn, Mount Buffalo'" thread represent your personal view rather than the policy of the Safer Cliffs organization? Some of your comments seemed to be more about justifying new bolts rather than advocating the replacement of unsafe hardware.


nmonteith

14-Feb-2013
4:23:05 PM

On 14/02/2013 kuu wrote:
>"The organization's aim is to replace OLD RUSTY HARDWARE."
>
>So can we correctly assume that at least some of your posts on the "Bolting
>at The Horn, Mount Buffalo'" thread represent your personal view rather
>than the policy of the Safer Cliffs organization? Some of your comments
>seemed to be more about justifying new bolts rather than advocating the
>replacement of unsafe hardware.

Yes. I have not changed my name by deed poll to Safer Cliffs. Safer Cliffs is an (unofficial) title used by quite a few climbers around Australia involved in rebolting work. It has nothing to do with bolting new routes. And I personally have no say on what other people who use the "safer cliffs" title are up to. In fact the busiest "chapter" of the organization is in Queensland where I am entirely clueless on their operations.

Seems a weird time to bring up this topic Kuu. Safer Cliffs has been around for 10 years now.... and has nothing to do with this Buffalo situation.


kuu

14-Feb-2013
4:38:35 PM

On 14/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>
>Seems a weird time to bring up this topic Kuu.

Sorry about that ;-)

>Safer Cliffs has been around for 10 years now....

So a good time to review its operation.

>and has nothing to do with this Buffalo situation.

Thank you. I read this as meaning your comments on The Horn thread did not reflect Safer Cliffs policy.


Macciza

14-Feb-2013
8:15:45 PM

On 14/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Seems a weird time to bring up this topic Kuu. . . .

Seriously? So when would be an 'unweird' time to bring it up? Who do we check with first? You? Come off it . . .

Given the amount of recent rampant revolting, rebolting, retrobolting and other general pussilanimosity going on currently it is by no mean a 'weird' time to bring it up imho . . .

Remeber when Kev started: 'Trad climbing' was just called climbing, and bolting up things was called 'Aiding' - And guess what ? Things have not changed that much, apart from spurt climbers deciding to call Climbing - Trad Climbing, what they do Sport(sic) Climbing, oh and training on smaller cliffs now being called Bouldering . . . Oh and all the 'Safety' shit that gets wafted about today . . .

I think what is really needed is to remember that modern, naturally protected climbing is a bit different to 'traditional' climbing, whatever that is . . .

I believe it is time it was rightly called 'Clean Climbing', and 'GreenPoints' should be encouraged, for both new and existing routes . . .
And in keeping with this spurt climbing should be 'Aided Climbing' or 'Artificially Protected Climbing' . . .

And re 'Evolution' in Climbing - I must admit to being a bit of a Creationist, and believe the Rock was created perfectly for climbing - I do not think Glue-In RingBolts evolved out of gear placements . . . .


ChuckNorris

14-Feb-2013
8:46:06 PM

is it just me or do most of the pro bolt everything people come across as half a bob short? In my job I'm used to dealing with people with a whole bunch of different opinions on things....but usually I can see where they are coming from, but you zealots think you have god behind you so you just keep blindly building on and on and on....and fck everyone else cos you know if you keep building on and on and on your heaven on earth will become a reality.


nmonteith

14-Feb-2013
9:24:04 PM

I'm still confused by why you needed to clip my ringbolts at Sublime when attempting yur ground up trad route Macca? You seemed quite happy to use them then. And didn't you drill a f--- load of rings in the Bluies for Garth to climb? For all your trad posturing you seem to enjoy bolts quite a lot.


Macciza

14-Feb-2013
10:16:36 PM

Well despite the digression, and the possibility of construing it as a personal attack (moderators?) here goes . . .

I had already tried the first part of the route up to the roof 'ground-up' on 2 or 3 previous occasions to the point that started getting a bit silly for my liking(and the belayer), I decided to have a look from above at that point and climbed the bottom of your route then lowered in to take a look and see if it was possible. Sorry, yes I guess I could have just used a sky hook instead, or a large BigBro.
Yes I was happy to use them I had already done the route, as it allowed me to investigate the route further, but I could have sorted something else if there were no rings, but you're right it was lazy . . .

Umm yeah I've put a few rings, FH's, bolts and pitons through the mountains, not particularly for Garth in particular although I was climbing and bolting with him for a while back in the day - but i did bolt some routes that I knew would be really hard (impossible for me) so they would be open projects for the lads to vie for (without ownership issues) . . .
But I do enjoy my clean climbing, (traditional, natural, gear-protected, whatever . . .) On many, many levels both spiritually, physically and mentally, in many different variations . . .
I'd like our climbing heritage and mainly naturally protected areas maintained, I would like bold climbs left alone, I would like to see hangerless bolts maintained in areas where they predominate, not retroringed . . .

Rings, bolts etc have there place and I do use them occasionally, purely recreationally mind you, it's not like I'm a junkie or anything, hardly even a casual user these days . . .


nmonteith

14-Feb-2013
10:38:55 PM

How is the ringbolted Gear Fear project going? I enjoyed your route description "Should have been a 'real' climb but people reckoned it would not get done on gear - Hence the name! Mind you, if I ever get it clean on gear - I'll pull the rings myself and put them somewhere else where they are really needed."

So it seems at some point in your past you thought it was ok to bolt something that would go on trad and you also bolted it for 'others' who wanted rings.

When I comment on Chockstone I am merely letting the less informed know that history isn't black and white but many many shades of grey. Everyone has a dirty little secret, or have changed their mind about something as they age. I am certainly not a bolting zealot - I just don't like watching people get on their high horse about something when it is not cut and dry.

For the record - I don't generally agree with retrobolting, especially on classics. But I do respect a first ascentist who wishes to retrobolt their own routes at a later date. If I decided I wanted to add bolts to my own routes I'm going to do it. And I'm happy to give permission to others to retro my own routes providing they ask me first.


ChuckNorris

14-Feb-2013
11:00:44 PM

Ironically, today I was having a chat to a work colleague about the history of cognitive biases, and he reminded me of the conclusion of one of the seminal studies...

"incompetent people cannot recognise that they are incompetent, and at the same time they do not recognise the competence in others"

yeh...but its not cut and dry you say....punks is chipped you say...yeh man lets chip everything man...the bloody hypocrites...yeh but we're being reasonable just pointing out the shades of grey...so we can just go on building and building and building....


nmonteith

14-Feb-2013
11:13:47 PM

Spoken by someone who placed plenty of bolts, but now tells others that bolting is bad. I presume you are going to go back out and debolt your previous bad deeds? Or do you want others to do it for you? I can't do it because I'm clearly incompetent.


JMK

14-Feb-2013
11:24:04 PM

U guys need to get a room.

Ps every coin has 3 sides


ChuckNorris

14-Feb-2013
11:39:28 PM

Dammit your right Neil. I did bolt a whole bunch a shit - but you forgot I did also chip a whole bunch a shit too.

Funny story, but today I was having a chat with a workmate about cognitive biases. And he reminded me of one of the seminal studies that concluded that "incompetent people don't recognise they are incompetent, and they also cannot recognise the competence in others"

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