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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author
Rope running over itself
Rawpowa!
30-Mar-2015
9:11:08 AM
Hi all I was "climbing" on sunday and managed to fling myself off a steep route while on toprope. Because I swung out I went around the belayers side of the rope and twisted the rope around itself 6 or 7 times. I managed to untwist it with great difficulty (I was hanging in space), I was wondering how dangerous that sort of situation is. For example if I was lowered off in that situation is it possible for the rope to generate enough heat to cut through with an intact sheath, and are there any similar situations with the rope running over itself that are dangerous. Thanks.
bentobox
30-Mar-2015
9:41:53 AM
Nah, she'll be right.
climbingjac
30-Mar-2015
9:48:40 AM
Fabric on fabric moving at a fast enough lowering pace can generate heat. I'm always very nervous being lowered when the two "sides" of the rope are close together and am not to proud to ask the belayer to lower me very slowly if needs be.

There was a very nasty accident in Spain some years ago whereby the climber threaded his rope through a sling at the loweroff point. That's right, there was no metal (such as screwgate) between the sling and his rope. He got lowered like this, heat built up and the sling sheared straight through and the climber took a 30m fall to the ground. The belayer didn't have a direct line of sight to the anchor itself and could not understand what had happened. As such a group climbed up afterwards to see what they could see and got the shock of their lives, firstly to find a sheared sling, and secondly that their friend had decided to lower directly off the sling.

Treasure your caution, it'll help keep you alive.

E. Wells
30-Mar-2015
9:56:23 AM
Nylon on nylon is always fun. I reccomend hanging from an engaged 6mm prussic with butt just above a boulder pad and vigourously thrusting another prussic across it. However the stuation you describe involves the two strands constantly moving and isnt much of an issue. It happens often.
Rawpowa!
30-Mar-2015
11:18:20 AM
Evan the thing was the rope was running over itself 6 or 7 times and because it was wrapped around itself it was rubbing around the entire circumference. I'm not too worried about the rope crossing at one point because the point of contact is always moving but in this case it I think the friction would have been much higher and I imagine I would have developed a 'bounce' as I lowered as well.


Climbingau my belayer mentioned a similar situation where people have rapped directly off slings. I'm sure it's ok most of the time but as you say it's very easy for something to go wrong. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Macciza
30-Mar-2015
11:57:28 AM
No chance of it melting/cutting through imho - worst case scenario maybe some glazing of the sheath.

And yes never lower through just a sling despite what you may have heard about 'hero loops' ... We never lowered through them but pulled rope up and abseiled off then pulled the rope. So obviously you would need to replace or inspect existing loops before use..

It's not that easy for something to go wrong, most of the time people really need to try to do something really stupid. Idiot proof stuff often leads them to be far more creative then a sensible person could possibly imagine ....
mikllaw
30-Mar-2015
12:05:22 PM
sliding rope on fixed rope will cut quickly
sliding rope on sliding rope (like a Munter hitch) is fine (but you can get glazing if there's a big fall

Eduardo Slabofvic
30-Mar-2015
1:15:01 PM
Glazing or "glassing" of the rope, resulting in you throwing it away and buying a new one. It can get expensive, but its only money. Plenty easy to get more of that.

Macciza
30-Mar-2015
1:34:54 PM
It's got to be pretty bad glazing before I bother about it too much . ..
Sometimes a good toprope over some rough bits of rock can fix it ....
Rawpowa!
30-Mar-2015
2:00:53 PM
Ok thanks for the opinions guys, I'll feel a lot more relaxed next time I do it.
patto
30-Mar-2015
3:35:31 PM
Nylon on nylon friction while loaded is a worry when one of the load is concentrated to one locality. Not when it is constantly changing.

Hence why munter hitches are perfectly fine.

Jahmz
30-Mar-2015
9:05:05 PM
I agree with the general consensus that the rope running over itself isn't really a problem as long as both pieces are moving. no single spot is touching for long enough to heat up. I worry more about the friction this causes resulting in difficult lowering, especially if a twist goes over a lip. It can result in sudden changes in force on the belayer's end. I havn't heard of any serious incidents caused by this, but I've had a couple of nasty shocks as I've suddenly dropped a couple of feet while the belayer gets back to the brake, or pulled of their footing.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
31-Mar-2015
10:01:24 AM
On 30/03/2015 Rawpowa! wrote:
>Hi all I was "climbing" on sunday and managed to fling myself off a steep
>route while on toprope. Because I swung out I went around the belayers
>side of the rope and twisted the rope around itself 6 or 7 times.
+
>the thing was the rope was running over itself 6 or 7 times and because it was wrapped around itself it was rubbing around the entire circumference

6 or 7 times?
I can imagine your fall adding one of those twists, but the rest sound like a stuffed up rigging of the top-rope to me.
~> Tell ...
>Climbingau my belayer
~> to get his act together!
;-)
Heh, heh, heh.

I think you would find that the abundant twists would bunch up where the top-rope anchor point is and either become a 'self-minding' prusik, or a clusterjam...
~> either way, a slow lowering by the belayer would help avoid any issues, as would sorting it (if possible), before lowering if you are aware of it beforehand.
Rawpowa!
1-Apr-2015
5:59:26 PM
>"6 or 7 times?
>I can imagine your fall adding one of those twists, but the rest sound like a stuffed up rigging of the top-rope to me."

No the toprope was fine I think. I was climbing through the draws and fell off before the last draw and before I managed the roof (on Off The Lip) so I swung out a fair way, then I started spinning around the rope when I was hanging in space. The good thing was I didn't have to do an awful heelhook move which would have torn my hamstring off.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2-Apr-2015
9:05:35 AM
On 1/04/2015 Rawpowa! wrote:
>No the toprope was fine I think. I was climbing through the draws and
>fell off before the last draw and before I managed the roof (on Off The
>Lip) so I swung out a fair way, then I started spinning around the rope
>when I was hanging in space. The good thing was I didn't have to do an
>awful heelhook move which would have torn my hamstring off.

Am still trying to envisage how you managed to do that.
Assuming you were removing draws while climbing, but still had one to go, with the top most piece above that last draw on an overhanging route, then the 'top-rope' would have been separated?
If you weren't removing draws then the ropes would even more likely be separated!

~> I'd still blame climbau* for belaying you in the wrong spot!!
;-)
Heh, heh, heh.

(*Good to hear he is still getting out and about).
Rawpowa!
2-Apr-2015
11:03:39 AM
>"Assuming you were removing draws while climbing, but still had one to go, with the top most piece above that last draw on an overhanging route, then the 'top-rope' would have been separated?
>If you weren't removing draws then the ropes would even more likely be separated!"

That's about right, I was cleaning on the way up with one draw left above me. So the rope wasn't running directly down from the anchor, it was going through the last draw to me.

ambyeok
2-Apr-2015
1:38:49 PM
Your killing me M9. Can you stick to normal punctuation and paragraph usage? Presently I just skip your posts cause their too hard to read o_O

There are 17 messages in this topic.

 

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