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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 64
Author
daisy chains
mikllaw
14/04/2014
5:12:09 PM
From http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/climbing-deal-breakers#.U0tS3bLXyS0.facebook
- certainly one of my pet hates

"Daisy Chains.

If this Deal Breaker list was organized in order of importanceówhich it is notódaisy chains would be at the top. Why are people using daisy chains while rock climbing? Who started this? Who is teaching this as a method for clipping into anchors? Why do so many people from Oregon and Washington use daisy chains? Why? Why? Why? Daisy chains are for aid climbing. Period. They are not for clipping into anchors while rock climbing. Not only is it dangerous, itís completely unnecessary. If you get to an anchor, be it a sport climb or a multi-pitch trad route, and think,

ďMan, it would be sweet to have a daisy chain right now,Ē you need to go get some professional instruction. And for Godís sake, stop, stop, STOP threading daisy chains through your crotch like a G-stringóthat is the ultimate Climbing Deal Breaker."

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/04/2014
5:18:27 PM
In the words of Pauline Hanson, "Please explain?"
... otherwise I'd think you were trolling mikl!








~> then again, it might be part of the 'new ring bolts only' mentality brigade, (if not a sh!t stirring mikl attempt?), in which case they can be excused out of ignorance of applied physics.
patto
14/04/2014
5:26:54 PM
I completely agree Mikl. But you might have some difficulty convincing some on this forum. Some people seem to be a little bit too attached to their daisy. ;-)


Earlier discussion on this issue:

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=26520&PagePos=&Sort=&Replies=44&MsgPagePos=20

ajfclark
14/04/2014
5:27:04 PM
On 14/04/2014 mikllaw wrote:
>From http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/climbing-deal-breakers

Not trimming superfluous shit from a link before sharing it is up there with using a shortening service for me. ;-)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/04/2014
5:36:06 PM
On 14/04/2014 patto wrote:
>I completely agree Mikl. But you might have some difficulty convincing
>some on this forum. Some people seem to be a little bit too attached to
>their daisy. ;-)
>
>
>Earlier discussion on this issue:
>
>http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=26520&PgePos=&Sort=&Replies=44&MsgPagePos=20

From your linked source, ... you did not reply to my question here ...
patto
14/04/2014
6:08:27 PM
Daisy chains are design to be used in aid. I'm sure there are countless better sources on the internet that can elaborate if you need it. Or refer to the manufacturers advice.

http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-bdag-Site/Sites-bdel/default/v1397456010793/files/MM5825_B_Daisy_Etrier_IS%20WEB.pdf

Macciza
14/04/2014
7:04:19 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with using Daisy's properly - Its sport climbers using them wrongly that is the problem . . ..

I think this DealBreaker is the best
"Stick clips. Ranks right up there with daisy chains. How, when and why did stick clipping become so damn common? Unless there is some terrifying consequence if you blow the first clip, you do not need a stick clip. A stick clip is not, and never has been, a mandatory piece of climbing equipment, so donít make one, donít bring one to the crag and donít swap route-specific stick-clipping beta. Just sac up and lead it."

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/04/2014
7:47:21 PM
On 14/04/2014 patto wrote:
>Daisy chains are design to be used in aid. I'm sure there are countless
>better sources on the internet that can elaborate if you need it. Or refer
>to the manufacturers advice.
>
I did.
There is nothing there that indicates not being able to use one in conjunction with a traditional belay set-up.

From your link...
Daisy Chains and Etriers
Black Diamondô Daisy Chains are available in two different materials:
lightweight 12 mm Dynex and economical 18 mm Nylon Supertape. Our
Daisy Chains feature:
◆◆ A choice of 115 cm (45 in) or 140 cm (55 in) lengths for ease-of-use
and minimum clutter.
◆◆ Half-twist loop for low-profile girth hitching to your harness.
◆◆ Dynex Daisys are ideal for alpine climbing because they absorb little
water and are less likely to freeze.
How To Use Daisy Chains
Daisy Chains are variable length tie-offs designed to support body
weight ONLY. DO NOT use them as part of your belay or
protection system. They are NOT designed to hold falls.
◆◆ Black Diamond Daisy Chains are designed with a halftwist
loop at one end to facilitate girth hitching the Daisy
to your harness waistbelt. After attaching the Daisy to
your harness, clip a pocket to your ascender or an aid
placement.
◆◆ Once you have established your primary anchor and have tied in,
you can also clip your Daisy Chain to the anchor for adjustability
(illustration 1).
◆◆ Warning: Do not rely on only one anchor or connect to your
anchors with only one piece of gear such as one Daisy Chain or
one carabiner. Use multiple anchors and redundant connection
equipment whenever possible.
◆◆ Always use a second carabiner to shorten your Daisy Chain
(illustration 1).
◆◆ NEVER clip a carabiner in to more than one pocket at a time
(illustration 2). If the bar-tacks between the pockets were to fail
under load, you would no longer be clipped in! This scenario could
occur when any two pockets are connected to a single carabiner
(illustration 3 & 4).
◆◆ Warning: Improper use of Daisy Chains can cause severe shock
loads. When clipped to an anchor (or other piece of gear) with a
Daisy, never climb above the anchor (illustration 5). In the event of a
fall, the Daisy will not stretch, resulting in a severe shock load to you,
to the anchor and to all gear in the system. This can potentially injure
you and can even cause your gear or anchor to fail.

miguel75
14/04/2014
8:26:22 PM
Obviously each of us need to make our own minds up about using gear for certain purposes but I reckon if the makers of a certain product are actively discouraging people from using their product for a certain purpose it's saying something;

http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl.html

More interesting info found here;

http://blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-BlackDiamond-Site/default/Link-Page?cid=qc-lab-archive
patto
14/04/2014
9:11:50 PM
Thanks Miguel. Just for those who aren't good at following links.

FROM BLACK DIAMOND:
"Lets be clear: You should NOT be using a daisy chain to anchor yourself to a belay. Daisy chains are designed for aid climbing only and to support body weight only."



Of course you can ignore the manufacturers recommendations if you want. Everybody is free to do so. But there are better options out there and encouraging others, especially beginners to use daisy chains seems far from ideal.
peteclimbs
Online Now
14/04/2014
9:28:11 PM
And if the daisy loops are rated?

Macciza
14/04/2014
9:52:44 PM
Seriously . .
QCLabs is pretty much personal opinion, the other stuff is from the actual product usage instructions provided with the daisy.

The instructions actually say very little about how to use a daisy for aiding but plenty about how to anchor to belay . .

So yes I will follow the manufacturers instructions,
◆ Once you have established your primary anchor and have tied in, you can also clip your Daisy Chain to the anchor for adjustability (illustration 1).
. . and I will take the personal opinion of the BD QCLab guy (who must have missed that bit) into account . . .
Not sure if he is an actual aid climber but that 'taking the rope out of the equation' stuff does not make sense, isn't that what a PAS does?? only without the load limiting . . .

Miguel75
14/04/2014
9:53:32 PM
On 14/04/2014 peteclimbs wrote:
>And if the daisy loops are rated?

Full strength rated? Like a PAS? Then they're going to be stronger than a regular daisy but still not awesome if you climb above the anchor.

I reckon the big problem is a lot of people I've been in contact with don't seem to know about the limitations of the daisy. If one person were to hurt themselves because of their ignorance than I reckon that's one too many...

E. Wells
14/04/2014
10:28:33 PM
I use daisies alot, I dont fall into them or allow myself the chance to. Usually they are attached to an alpine butterfly in a top belay abseil system. If I need to shorten it I just put a snappy in my belay loop and clip into a loop from my waist. I weigh 80 kg and I thrash my daisies in muddy canyons and pinning into steep routes etc. If I ever intended to fall (eg back up device on back up line) I would choose something dynamic. No need to discredit daisies, and there will allways be people out there misusing gear. Today I ran out of draws so used a locking biner clipped to one end of tricam, snappy with some bolt plates still attached to the other end of tri cam. instant quickdraw!! Would I complain if i fell on it and blew it apart. ..? I would F*&king sue CAMP for sure.
patto
14/04/2014
10:59:35 PM
On 14/04/2014 Macciza wrote:
>Seriously . .
>QCLabs is pretty much personal opinion, the other stuff is from the actual
>product usage instructions provided with the daisy.
>
>The instructions actually say very little about how to use a daisy for
>aiding but plenty about how to anchor to belay . .
>
>So yes I will follow the manufacturers instructions,
>◆ Once you have established your primary anchor and have tied
>in, you can also clip your Daisy Chain to the anchor for adjustability
>(illustration 1).
> . . and I will take the personal opinion of the BD QCLab guy (who must
>have missed that bit) into account . . .
>Not sure if he is an actual aid climber but that 'taking the rope out
>of the equation' stuff does not make sense, isn't that what a PAS does??
>only without the load limiting . . .

Oh dear....

BD had to change their instructions to INCLUDE stuff about DOs and DON'Ts of using a daisy due because people kept using it for non aiding.

If you really think that BD made the daisy chain for personal anchoring at the end of pitches then the state of knowledge here is worse than I imagined.

Miguel75
14/04/2014
11:26:01 PM
If you understand the limitations of the gear you're using and chose to use the gear a certain way then I don't reckon there's an issue. If someone new to climbing is told to get a daisy for the specific purpose of using it as a personal anchor and does so without being told of its limitations than that's an issue.

I use a modified grigri for roped solo even though Petzl recommends against it. I've made an educated (or not) decision that works for me.
One Day Hero
15/04/2014
12:47:22 AM
On 14/04/2014 Miguel75 wrote:
>I use a modified grigri for roped solo even though Petzl recommends against
>it. I've made an educated (or not) decision that works for me (so far).

ftfy

Eduardo Slabofvic
15/04/2014
9:45:30 AM
This guy needs to go and buy a shunt (or its equivalent)
PThomson
15/04/2014
10:40:55 AM
I've been using a PAS (BD chain reactor and Metolius PAS at seperate times) since I started climbing for anchoring on sports climbs when I rethread to clean the route. Nothing wrong with it from an "intended usage" or a "technical/safety" perspective.

Having said that, I'd be willing to bet that, ironically, most of the people who are criticising the use of daisy chains for this action probably perform an even greater breach of safety in how they go in hard to the anchors to rethread and lower than if they just used the daisy in the first place.

- Paul

Macciza
15/04/2014
10:52:13 AM
Oh dear . . . back at ya . . .
No I don't think people originally made daises for personal anchoring . .

BUT the instructions that you referred us to (to support your case) clearly states that BD instructs people on how to use them as such (personal anchoring), and includes more info on doing so then they do about using one for aid . . .

So are these the instructions they changed from , or changed to?

Personally, I think they are pretty shocking instructions no matter how I look at it . . .

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There are 64 messages in this topic.

 

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