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 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 23
Author
Bowlines - who uses what?
el_crimpo
30/04/2013
3:49:40 PM
Ok so since I started using a bowline to tie in to the rope a few years ago, I have used two variations after discussing the knot and the varous pros to each knot.

Started with a double bowline

Now use a bowline on a bight, re-threadded rather than being on a bight as I've heard it has higher strength. It does take longer and I dont think I can tie it with one hand like some bowline variations.

Just wondering how many people use either of these and why; or may be you use a water bowline or yosemite bowline or some other variation.
JDB
30/04/2013
4:02:40 PM
I've used a single bow-line with a stopper knot for 38 years without no ill effect (apart from funny looks when I do the 'rabbit comes out of the hole, goes around the tree etc routine')
JDB
30/04/2013
4:04:15 PM
apart from my grammar

Eduardo Slabofvic
30/04/2013
4:04:48 PM
You realise that you are going to die as a result of using bowlines, as it is a well established fact (apparently) that all people who tie in using a bowline (regardless of what type) will eventually die, one day, maybe not for many years, but rest assured you will die.

I have been tying in using a bowline for 30 years, and although I'm not dead yet, I am constantly reminded that I will die because I use a bowline. I recognise that every day I tie in with a bowline I get inexorably closer to the day of my death.

I have become comfortable with this concept of mortality, which has allowed me to not be distracted by celebrity worship, and the like. As such, I choose to use a double bowline, with the tail locked, and a half fisherman’s attaching the tail to the line as a kind of stopper knot.

Duang Daunk
30/04/2013
4:29:28 PM
On 30/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>You realise that you are going to die as a result of using bowlines, as
>it is a well established fact (apparently) that all people who tie in using
>a bowline (regardless of what type) will eventually die, one day, maybe
>not for many years, but rest assured you will die.
>
>I have been tying in using a bowline for 30 years, and although I'm not
>dead yet, I am constantly reminded that I will die because I use a bowline.
> I recognise that every day I tie in with a bowline I get inexorably closer
>to the day of my death.
>
>I have become comfortable with this concept of mortality, which has allowed
>me to not be distracted by celebrity worship, and the like. As such, I
>choose to use a double bowline, with the tail locked, and a half fisherman’s
>attaching the tail to the line as a kind of stopper knot.
>

Just do it Ed and stop teasing us. By the way, where is Bomber Pro when we need him, coz he knows all about this stuff.
technogeekery
30/04/2013
5:16:49 PM
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/Not-the-Knot.html

Good article on why all of you are going to die, using that deadly not-knot...

I use a double figure 8 (trace-8), and expect to at least have my rope attached to me when I cark it.

Never really understood the "easy to undo" argument - if I am regularly plummeting onto my rope, I'm quite happy that it is hard to come undone.

Both are safe if you do them right every time. Seems that the bowline variants are easier to screw up - and harder to visually check.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
30/04/2013
5:29:57 PM
On 30/04/2013 el_crimpo wrote:
>Ok so since I started using a bowline to tie in to the rope a few years
>ago, I have used two variations after discussing the knot and the varous
>pros to each knot.
>
>Started with a double bowline
>
>Now use a bowline on a bight, re-threadded rather than being on a bight
>as I've heard it has higher strength. It does take longer and I dont think
>I can tie it with one hand like some bowline variations.
>
>Just wondering how many people use either of these and why; or may be
>you use a water bowline or yosemite bowline or some other variation.

There is plenty of reading on that topic on Chockstone for you here...

Some of it includes pictures of preferred methods, and if I recall correctly there is even a poll in there too.

Eduardo Slabofvic
30/04/2013
5:32:17 PM
I like that article; it clearly demonstrates why I’m going to die from using a bowline. It’s because the bowline is tied incorrectly.

“But a bowline tied incorrectly isn’t a bowline”, I hear you say.

“Shut up and sit down”, I say.

“But any knot tied incorrectly can fail”, I hear you say.

I say again, “SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN”.

“But a bow line is as easy as any knot to check if it’s tied correctly”, I hear you say.

I say, “Don’t make me come over there”.

Duang Daunk
30/04/2013
5:49:20 PM
On 30/04/2013 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>I like that article; it clearly demonstrates why I’m going to die from
>using a bowline. It’s because the bowline is tied incorrectly.
>
>“But a bowline tied incorrectly isn’t a bowline”, I hear you say.
>
>“Shut up and sit down”, I say.
>
>“But any knot tied incorrectly can fail”, I hear you say.
>
>I say again, “SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN”.
>
>“But a bow line is as easy as any knot to check if it’s tied correctly”,
>I hear you say.
>
>I say, “Don’t make me come over there”.
>

"Regardless, a bowline knot is still strong enough to pull a boulderer off his sister", I heard you say.
el_crimpo
30/04/2013
5:51:47 PM
That is an interesting article I agree but I see the main issue there being the tying of the knot(s), not the knot itself.

I would say it takes about 1/3 of a second longer to inspect a bowline or a variant as opposed to a figure of 8. As long as you know what knot your partner will tie, if you've looked at enough knots over your climbing career (as im sure most of you have) you can recognise an error pretty quickly.

I'd definitely like to hear how peoples bowlines have sinched loose. I've never had it happen.
technogeekery
30/04/2013
7:27:47 PM
I have never tied in with a bowline, so can't tell on casual inspection whether you have tied it right or knott. 80% of the climbing population can't either. (That stat is 93% likely to be right.) Best you get it right, then. But I'm sure you always will...
Drake
30/04/2013
7:37:30 PM
John Long's accident was caused by user error, not by a particular knot. He very clearly said so himself in an interview with Rock and Ice, which, conveniently, wasn't quoted by the Outside article, as it didn't fit with the author's thesis.

Pasted below is text from R&I, original here: http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/john-long-accident-details-and-update

'Long says that he ties in with a double bowline, but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work, he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops," he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

"A lot of people are down on the bowline, but the same thing would have happened with a trace-8. I just wasn't paying attention." '

I say: use whatever knot you like.
simey
30/04/2013
8:20:12 PM
On 30/04/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>There is plenty of reading on that topic on Chockstone for you here...


Forget reading all those pages, this is the only one that matters...

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=9853&Replies=11

freesolo
30/04/2013
9:28:46 PM
used the same as jdb for 10+ years, plenty of lead falls, no drama. easy to check, easy to untie, strong as the fig. 8
kieranl
30/04/2013
10:01:49 PM
The knot is not as important as your attitude. You need to practice what Jared Diamond refers to as constructive paranoia : "If there is some act that carries a low risk each time, but if you are going to do it frequently, you had better learn to be consistently careful if you don't want to die or become crippled at a young age".
anthonycuskelly
1/05/2013
7:23:20 AM
I use a double, with the tail re-threaded so that it comes back out parallel with the climbing side, with a stopper. I'm also used to climbing partners not being able to check it, so make sure I check that little bugger...
mikllaw
1/05/2013
9:07:20 AM
On 30/04/2013 technogeekery wrote:
>>Never really understood the "easy to undo" argument - if I am regularly
>plummeting onto my rope,

you're not a real climber till you weigh 95 kg. I've had to cut a few knots undone


>Both are safe if you do them right every time. Seems that the bowline
>variants are easier to screw up - and harder to visually check.

very easy to screw up, both me and the guy whio taught me have had bowlines come undone. But, I use a bowline on bight as it is is a) effectively a bowline with a compicated stopper knot and b) is a bit easier to see when it's not a knot than a regular (or double, or yosemite, or rethreaded) bowline, but not as obvious as a figure 8.
technogeekery
1/05/2013
9:16:27 AM
On 1/05/2013 anthonycuskelly wrote:
>so make sure I check that little bugger...

yes, doesn't really matter what knot you use,that is the key. Doing a partner check every time is my routine, and is more about me double checking myself than relying on my partner to check. Have always picked up any issues with my knot myself (and there have been a couple of times where I'd initially been distracted and not finished the knot, picked up on double check) so I've never had a partner pick up an issue before me.

But I have (once) told a partner he could climb when the ATC wasn't properly threaded - rope was through the ATC but when I went to clip it into the belay locker, I didn't get the rope through the biner, just the keeper cable. My sharp eyed leader simply pulled the doubled rope out of the ATC. No harm done, it was on the ground & in a gym, and the rope would have pulled out on the first move - but another story if that first move had been a hard first move off a multipitch ledge. To complete my mortification, this was the fist time I had ever climbed with a new partner - one Mikl Law.

I have modified my checking routine to include pulling the rope back & forth through the ATC as well as checking the screwgate, when I am belaying.
anthonycuskelly
1/05/2013
10:01:39 AM
On 1/05/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>you're not a real climber till you weigh 95 kg. I've had to cut a few
>knots undone

Only that heavy with my trad rack on... never quite had to cut the knot out, but there have been a few that have taken a while...
martym
1/05/2013
11:55:44 AM
Rethreaded bowline.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 23
There are 23 messages in this topic.

 

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