Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author

trad + grigri


IdratherbeclimbingM9

29-Feb-2012
3:46:52 PM

Olbert interpreted me correctly.
I agree with Maccizas', kieranl's and also climbau's post/s.

Hitting the deck should not be an option.
If you hit the deck (albeit scrape or whatever), then either your gear was non-existant/failed, or your belay setup was flawed, ... which includes belayer stance and amount of rope paid out.
~> The only other alternative is that you chose to run it out... & this does not sound like sport climbing to me.

Linze

29-Feb-2012
3:47:15 PM

On 29/02/2012 climbau wrote:
>A couple of suggestions;
>1. (sport climbing) Don't skip clips. Just 'cause everyone else does,
>doesn't mean you have to or should do. Especially seeing as though you
>know the weight difference causes groundfalls/scrapes.

i think ODH's earlier response deals with 'rules' pretty satsifactorally... safety shouldnt be black and white, but dependent on your assessment of the complex interaction of factors at a point in time. stopping to clip a bolt is not nessesarily safer than punching through to easier ground. maybe the placer of the bolt got it wrong...

Linze

29-Feb-2012
3:56:32 PM

On 29/02/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Olbert interpreted me correctly.
>I agree with Maccizas', kieranl's and also climbau's post/s.
>
>Hitting the deck should not be an option.
>If you hit the deck (albeit scrape or whatever), then either your gear
>was non-existant/failed, or your belay setup was flawed, ... which includes
>belayer stance and amount of rope paid out.
>~> The only other alternative is that you chose to run it out... & this
>does not sound like sport climbing to me.

lets settle it with a challenge. if any of the "you should review your belay technique"ers can sucessfully stop a singificantly heavier climber falling off the crux clip on attack mode from touching the ground,say, three times on the trot, i will buy you a number 6 camalot...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

29-Feb-2012
3:57:19 PM

On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 climbau wrote:
>>A couple of suggestions;
>>1. (sport climbing) Don't skip clips. Just 'cause everyone else does,
>>doesn't mean you have to or should do. Especially seeing as though you
>>know the weight difference causes groundfalls/scrapes.
>
>i think ODH's earlier response deals with 'rules' pretty satsifactorally...
>safety shouldnt be black and white, but dependent on your assessment of
>the complex interaction of factors at a point in time. stopping to clip
>a bolt is not nessesarily safer than punching through to easier ground.
>maybe the placer of the bolt got it wrong...

At the risk of being controversial...
Yeah, yeah, ... blame the bolter.

~> And for the record, if you have not deduced this already from my post history, I am not (generally) in favour of bolts!!!
☺

@
>lets settle it with a challenge. if any of the "you should review your belay technique"ers can sucessfully stop a singificantly heavier climber falling off the crux clip on attack mode from touching the ground,say, three times on the trot, i will buy you a number 6 camalot...

~> you owe me, and kieranl, and others(!), a number 6 camalot!
Heh, heh, heh.

ZERO

29-Feb-2012
4:58:41 PM

>lets settle it with a challenge. if any of the "you should review your
>belay technique"ers can sucessfully stop a singificantly heavier climber
>falling off the crux clip on attack mode from touching the ground,say,
>three times on the trot, i will buy you a number 6 camalot...

I think the major fault here is your attitude to the complexities of trad climbing.
As just about everyone else here has stated, there are infinite variables.
If you approach trad climbing with the intention of falling regularly please post your picture up here so as we all know not to climb with or near you.

Some of these comments are from people who have participated in several rescues, often from people who have been blase about gear, trad and falling in general.
A Number 6 Camalot is not enough to climb with someone of your recklessness.


climbau

29-Feb-2012
5:06:44 PM

On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 climbau wrote:
>i think ODH's earlier response deals with 'rules' pretty satsifactorally...
One persons rules are not necessarily another persons methods.

>safety shouldnt be black and white, but dependent on your assessment of
>the complex interaction of factors at a point in time.
Exactly.
> stopping to clip
>a bolt is not nessesarily safer than punching through to easier ground.
And that is a decision that has to be made on a case-by-case basis
>maybe the placer of the bolt got it wrong...
Indeed, and now it is up to others to either accept it, or fix it.

Stop focusing on the individual and look at the system along with the interchangeable components.
You have asked a general question, deal with the general advice.
If you are looking for a solution to skipping a particular clip on Attack Mode without having the risk of hitting the deck, then a) find another climb, b) man up and eat dirt, c) get a heavier belayer, d) pre-clip the "unclippable", e) choose another route, f) ask the FA if you can adjust the bolt position. I am sure there are many more options.
If you are asking for another person to justify your use of a device/method/tactic in an inappropriate situation, don't complain when others don't accept your BS.
If you are innocently asking for advice on a general issue involving a general set of circumstances, then accept the answers are going to be of a generalised nature and get off the (perceived) defensive high-horse whilst quoting specific routes and situations and issuing silly BS challenges. Oh hey, you could also use your own judgement and experience to substitute relevant components of the system with more appropriate ones. If you know better, then take the risk and stop shirking your responsibilities.
And if my post seems a little sarcastic and frustrated, you'd be right. Nobody was being rude, demeaning or otherwise until you decided your ego was more important than the learning experience. You asked a question because you were trying to avoid hitting the ground, but now you are defending the decision to hit the ground and also blaming others for your own choices/decisions.
C'mon Linze, I'm sure your just having a moment and will realise that others have just tried to be helpful and work with the info given.
.
.
.
.
*Thread Edit*
Yes, you can use a GriGri for Trad Climbing.

chalkischeap

29-Feb-2012
5:27:23 PM

Linze, I'm sure you have this down now. I find it's best to ask your question then get the hell out for a while. Then come back and pick out the 10% useful, 10% funny and ignore the 80% distraction. This method works well for the internet in general.

The 10% useful was pretty good in this thread and I learned a few things.

The 10% funny was the "feeder" comment. ODH I'm switching you back on as you seem to have cheered up a bit.


Macciza

29-Feb-2012
9:35:04 PM

On 29/02/2012 STEALTH wrote:
>If you approach trad climbing with the intention of falling regularly
>please post your picture up here so as we all know not to climb with or near you.
>

I don't think he is approaching it 'intending to fall regularly' . . .
And what is it with all this 'don't fall when climbing trad' bullshit anyway that people spout, load of bloody codswallop, next it will be you shouldn't plan on falling on carrots either . . .
Most of the people saying it probably don't even really 'fall' when climbing on glue-ins

And so what if comments come from people who have been involved in rescues, including no doubt of people who failed to realise that any climbing can be dangerous, and yet carried on as if their particular version of the sport was safe as . . .

And I'd be far more interested in climbing with someone who is prepared to fall on trad, than some 'risk-gay' sport climber who 'takes' at the first difficulty . . .

Linze

29-Feb-2012
10:40:47 PM

On 29/02/2012 STEALTH wrote:
.
>If you approach trad climbing with the intention of falling regularly
>please post your picture up here so as we all know not to climb with or
>near you.

you cant quite make out our faces but i hope this helps

http://www.climbingtechniques.org/uploads/4/9/7/5/4975151/9723877.jpg


Eduardo Slabofvic

29-Feb-2012
11:28:50 PM

On 29/02/2012 Macciza wrote:
>
>And what is it with all this 'don't fall when climbing trad' bullshit
>

Exactly

rightarmbad

1-Mar-2012
3:49:21 AM

Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier climbers on the route in question.
You already own them a cam each.

Have you considered that if you are pulling up heaps of slack to clip that maybe you are not clipping sensible?
If a ground fall is a possibility, don't clip at full reach, clip at your hip, you need pull no rope to clip then.

I am always heavier than others I climb with, sometimes double their weight if they are a small girl.
I use the various methods suggested here.
The only time I have touched down was because I didn't anchor my belayer when I should have.

A different device would have made no difference and if I had of chosen a Gri Gri, then I would have let the small possibility of the device opening when it hit the first bit of gear into the picture.

The history of you experiencing no Gri Gri failures in this mode says nothing about the next time, only the past lucky ones.
Now please tell me that you understand that it is well known that sometimes a Gri Gri will not auto lock, it truly is auto assist and the makers acknowledge this, and that the makers also warn of the potential of the device to fail if it hits the first draw.

And I fall on trad, if I didn't trust my gear enough to do so, I wouldn't step onto any route, regardless of whether I thought I would fall or not.
Unlike most, my highest grades were climbed on gear, not bolts.


sliamese

1-Mar-2012
8:19:36 AM

>>If you approach trad climbing with the intention of falling regularly
>>please post your picture up here so as we all know not to climb with
>or
>>near you.

if your a trad climber that feels like they cant trust the gear they place to fall on, please post your email here so i can suggest some training options.....

ive got to the point i almost feel uncomfortable being belayed on an atc, sport or trad. im a big scaredy cat though, paranoid about everything.

its fairly common that those using tube-style devices havent caught many falls, and hence dont give very soft catches(dynamic belays) putting my ankles at serious risk.

also i know i find atc's harder to pay slack quickly and safely, and hence get short roped more often. so if you know how to use a gri-gri its a far better option IMO than anything else out there, i carry one on almost all routes, even the light n fast rock routes as with it on me, theres no situation i cant get out of. (can haul through it, ascend with nothing else, do lots!)

simey

1-Mar-2012
9:28:05 AM

On 1/03/2012 sliamese wrote:
>ive got to the point i almost feel uncomfortable being belayed on an atc,
>sport or trad. im a big scaredy cat though, paranoid about everything.
>
>its fairly common that those using tube-style devices havent caught many
>falls, and hence dont give very soft catches(dynamic belays) putting my
>ankles at serious risk.
>
>also i know i find atc's harder to pay slack quickly and safely, and hence
>get short roped more often. so if you know how to use a gri-gri its a far
>better option IMO than anything else out there, i carry one on almost all
>routes, even the light n fast rock routes as with it on me, theres no situation
>i cant get out of. (can haul through it, ascend with nothing else, do lots!)

I'm afraid to say Simon, that from my experience I have formed pretty much the opposite view to everything you have said here. I think gri-gris are great for top-roping or belaying someone who is working a route, but otherwise I prefer a more conventional belay device.


nmonteith

1-Mar-2012
9:34:08 AM


Pat

1-Mar-2012
9:38:53 AM

Umm . . Neil - which Simon where you talking about?

kieranl

1-Mar-2012
10:23:37 AM

On 1/03/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>On 1/03/2012 sliamese wrote:
>>ive got to the point i almost feel uncomfortable being belayed on an
>atc,
>>sport or trad. im a big scaredy cat though, paranoid about everything.
>>
>>its fairly common that those using tube-style devices havent caught many
>>falls, and hence dont give very soft catches(dynamic belays) putting
>my
>>ankles at serious risk.
>
>I feel exactly the same way Simon.
It might be more to do with people who use ATC style devices generally have more of a trad background than sport so aren't practised in giving soft catches.
Interestingly, some german friends of Norm's who climb almost exclusively sport prefer belaying with ATC style devices and use the GriGri mainly for top-roping.


climbau

1-Mar-2012
10:38:57 AM

In France last year the most common belay device type I saw being used was the tube style both indoors and out. Assisted-locking devices were about, but was the reverse situation than here at Oz sport crags.

One Day Hero

1-Mar-2012
12:01:18 PM

Yeah, I saw a bit of that at Taipan last autumn as well. A few of the euros were belaying with a gri gri during the dogging phase, then using an atc to belay the redpoint shots (so as to be able to give softer catches)..........whatever, as long as your belayer has their shit together it works out fine, right?

One Day Hero

1-Mar-2012
12:09:02 PM

On 1/03/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier climbers
>on the route in question.
>You already own them a cam each.
>
I reckon those big cams are pretty safe. Kieran and M9 hanging out at P.C.?.................probably not.

Olbert

2-Mar-2012
2:09:35 PM

On 1/03/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier
climbers
>on the route in question.
>You already own them a cam each.
>

Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure M9 has never been near Attack Mode, it would be an anathema to him.

There are 73 messages in this topic.