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Where can I buy seat belt webbing?


rocknrich

30-Jun-2009
11:22:49 PM

Haha, I keep typing up responses, but then more replies appear as I'm doing so (I'm a slow typer). I guess I should've just kept it simple and asked "where can I get seatbelt webbing?"

I'll bow out now, though I'm still interested in the chest harness thing.

Cheers,
rich


nmonteith

30-Jun-2009
11:24:42 PM

On 30/06/2009 rocknrich wrote:
>Why doesn't
>every skinny, hipless climber need a chest harness though?

That's exactly what I was thinking! Dave Graham should have fallen out of his harness years ago...

>As far as starting to buy harnesses goes, yeah a single child's harness
>is $10. Are you suggesting I buy a collection of harnesses to have on hand
>to fit various size people?

Maybe think about buying some seat belt webbing and making your own?


rodw

1-Jul-2009
6:58:52 AM

In my caving days thats all we had was hand tied harnesses using webbing under our overalls..perfectly safe just not very comfortable but way less bulky then a normal harness which in caving was an issue....definately a lot easier and cheaper to have several roles of the stuff in a pack than buy a couple of bulkier harness etc...plus you can use them for anchors etc if need be.


Phil Box

1-Jul-2009
9:23:57 AM

Having worked with an awful lot of kids now and over many years of seeing them try to fit their own harness I have come to the conclusion that they will never flip upside down and slip out of their harness if the harness is actually fitted correctly. If the harness waist belt is fitted around the waist and not the hips then the centre of gravity is correct to keep the kids from inverting. That coupled with correct instruction to ensure that when they start to move out into the abseiling position and start to move down the cliff they have their feet correctly positioned.

I rarely see kids invert whilst transitioning from the top of the cliff to the vertical section of the cliff whilst beginning to abseil.

I never allow kids to even get anywhere near the rope until I am happy that their harness is fitted correctly. I have seen a lot of sloppy inspection by other facilitators. I do believe that the waist belt issue is key to ensuring that a kid never slides out of their harness. Of course real fat kids should always have a chest harness or sling fitted to prevent inversion as they are top heavy to start with.

I don't agree with the notion that kids do not have hips. As long as the waist belt is high enough and fitted in that spoogy zone between top of hips and bottom of rib cage then it will be effective. Much more comfortable for them too. Oh yes, when fitting the waist belt the belt definitely needs to encircle the waist evenly and NOT be looking down at the crotch. If it is looking down at the crotch then the leg loops need loosening off and the waist belt subsequently hoisted up and retightened.

Sorry to bang on about this but I see a lot of bad habits fitting harnesses to kids out there.

simey

1-Jul-2009
11:47:00 AM

I've had some experience using seatbelt webbing to make harnesses. I used to instruct groups where it was common for the whole group to be wearing makeshift harnesses using the method described by Rich. However I always thought they were pretty annoying and the leg-loops had a habit of sliding down the wearers legs (could be solved by using a separate sling which went from each leg loop and over the waist loop at the back of the harness).

In my first year or two of climbing I also wore a harness made of seatbelt webbing which involved one length being wrapped around my waist a few times and then tied using a tape knot (aka re-threaded overhand knot). I then had a short length of webbing for my leg loops which I left permantly tied with a loop at either end and which went from one leg over my waist loop and down to the other leg. At the back of this harness I used a sling to stop the leg loops sliding down. The photo of Mike Law on Debutantes and Centipedes in the Araps guide looks like he is wearing a similar set-up (but without the sling at the back). Although I took some decent falls (including a 10m whipper from the final moves of Fuhrer Eliminate on the North Wall of Buffalo) my cheapy harness was time consuming to take on and off and lacked gear loops.

Nowadays you can buy harnesses designed for commercial instruction which fit a huge range of sizes and which aren't too expensive. If you thought you were going to take friends climbing on a regular basis, I would recommend buying one or two of these instead of stuffing around with seatbelt webbing. If you are just doing a one-off, then go the seatbelt webbing option.


ajfclark

1-Jul-2009
11:53:39 AM

On 1/07/2009 simey wrote:
>Nowadays you can buy harnesses designed for commercial instruction which fit a huge range of sizes and which aren't too expensive.

Something like this?

Richard Delaney

1-Jul-2009
1:18:23 PM

A couple of points:
1. Child harnesses tend to be full body because (a) yes they have no hips, but more
importantly (b) their heads are bigger and neck muscles less developed and they
struggle with bellybutton level attachments
2. Seat belt webbing does not hold tape knots. It appears to but there was extensive
testing done a while back (I forget who - someone help with a ref) and 2" webbing -
especially the seatbelt variety - slips undone. Tape knots do slip - there was a double
father and son fatality at Mt York (Blue Mtns) about 20yrs ago when a tape knotted sling
around the tree above pepper corner came undone. This is not such an issue with the
through-the-legs-back-round-the-waist-a-whole-lot-of-times swami harness as the load at
the knot is greatly reduced however it is why we hardly ever see seatbelt webbing used
for anchoring (except for a few die hards) and why it's even harder to buy.

My advice and what I use on my 3 and 5 year old sons - use rated 1" tape, knot the leg
loops separately with double o'hand knots then do the wraps 'round the waist and finish
with a tape knot. Use an impro chest harness as well (I use combinations of 60 &
120cm sewn slings) and make sure the attachment point is at about sternum height.
Otherwise, buy one - they're very adjustable and will be handed around to mates/friends
etc.


rocknrich

1-Jul-2009
3:52:05 PM

Richard Delaney, thats interesting and gives me pause for thought. I wonder if some sort of stopper knot might help or maybe tube tape's a better option (though it sounds like maybe that's suspect as well)

It's very occasional that anyone else comes along, otherwise I would just get another harness. I mainly asked now because I've got 4 English friends over at the moment keen to try climbing at Arapiles this weekend and I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. As far as my little cousins are concerned, its just an idea that comes up every now and then in conversation with my uncle.

Anyway, given the weather I doubt there's going to much climbing going on this weekend anyway. I was starting to think a bit of bouldering and exploration might be the best bet, maybe a scramble up Ali's (with some gear incase anyone's nervous).

Thanks for the input.
rich

Richard Delaney

1-Jul-2009
4:03:31 PM

It's very important that my post is not taken to undermine people's confidence in Tape
Knots. They are still the knot to use for knotted slings. It's just that:
- Tape knots should have long tails (say 100mm)
- Tape knots must be checked prior to each use (especially if you leave slings knotted)
- Tape knots are not suited for knotting the 2" slippery seat belt webbing
- In a situation with many round turns, the load at the knot is proportionally reduced (hence
the reason for the popularity of wrap-3-pull-2 configuration of knotted slings in rescue
anchors)

Tape Knots in 1" tubular webbing are bomber - just tie them right and check 'em each time.


rocknrich

1-Jul-2009
4:35:59 PM

So, is there a more suitable way of tying seatbelt webbing, or is it best avoided completely?

simey

1-Jul-2009
4:54:18 PM

On 1/07/2009 rocknrich wrote:
>I mainly asked now because I've got 4 English friends over at the moment keen to try climbing at Arapiles this weekend and I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do.

I'm pretty sure you can hire harnesses at Arapiles Mountain Shop in Natimuk.


pmonks

2-Jul-2009
5:01:00 AM

On 1/07/2009 Richard Delaney wrote:
>- Tape knots are not suited for knotting the 2" slippery seat belt webbing

In what way aren't they suitable?

A bit late now, but like rodw I started out caving and used a 2" seat belt webbing harness. We tied two fixed size leg loops towards one end of a long (3m?) length of tape, then wrapped the long tail around our waists 2 or 3 times before tying it off to the shorter tail with a water knot and two overhands (one in each tail). I don't recall ever having any trouble with water knots in the 2" webbing, although we took pains to tighten them right up before use.

Atomic_Tomatoes

2-Jul-2009
8:27:02 AM

My first introduction to abseiling was with a 2" Tape 'Harness'.
One length wrapped around waist a number of times and tied off with a 'tape' knot. Second length tied in a loop with a 'tape' knot and this was used as your leg loops with a Delta maillon to hold it all together (leg loops and waist). Never had a problem with the tape slipping was taught to leave 120mm tails as the minimum for 2" tape.
A tape harness was also my first caving harness with 1" tube tape to improvise a chest harness for long prussics out.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

2-Jul-2009
11:58:37 AM

Richard Delaney wrote:
>- Tape knots must be checked prior to each use (especially if you leave slings knotted)
>- Tape knots are not suited for knotting the 2" slippery seat belt webbing
>- In a situation with many round turns, the load at the knot is proportionally reduced (hence the reason for the popularity of wrap-3-pull-2 configuration of knotted slings in rescue anchors)

>Tape Knots in 1" tubular webbing are bomber - just tie them right and check 'em each time.

& rocknrich replied:
>So, is there a more suitable way of tying seatbelt webbing, or is it best avoided completely?

Tape knots work in 2" webbing.
Tape knots in any webbing (includes 1' tubular), can slip.
Regular checks and retightening as necessary along with long tails (6"=150mm) on dressed knots, makes the use of these materials a viable option for various uses.

In my experience the loosening/slippage occurs during frequent useage ie not necessarily a one off large-ish load applied, but just constant movement 'working' the knot.
For slings etc that one wants to generally remain tied off with the tape knot, then tightening under bodyweight while using pliers helps greatly in achieving this.

Paul

2-Jul-2009
12:36:39 PM

For tape harnesses consider using the surgens knott instead of the tape knott, it is easier to tighten and less prone to slippage.

lacto

2-Jul-2009
5:44:32 PM

waist loops used to be about 6 to 9 wraps of No 2 rope (1000kg ) and the next improvement was 2" seat belt webbing followed by swami seats from webbing . Harness were "New " and relatively quite expensive but much simpler and more fool proof . I believe the load required to have these loops fail would see the body smashed up well before they failed . They certainly were comfortable to fall in but they did the job. Protection at this time was slings with engine nuts and some newer nuts were appearing but hexes were yet to hit the market let alone small wires and cams . If and only if you know what you are doing seatbelt webbing is fine .

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