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Medicinal use of mary jane

Olbert

1-Dec-2010
12:15:47 AM

On 30/11/2010 Sabu wrote:
>Are we talking about cannabis or agonists of the cannabinoid system in
>general? That paragraph sounds like its referring to compounds that effect
>the system rather than cannabis in particular. We have to be careful here
>as evidence for the efficacy of compounds that target the cannabinoid system
>is not necessarily a green light for cannabis.

Chockstone is not a place for reasoned argument, supporting evidence, logical rebuttal or a friendly tone! Im reporting you to a moderator!

Wendy

1-Dec-2010
7:54:35 AM

On 30/11/2010 ado_m wrote:
>Sounds like a recipe for psychosis.

i'd be curious to know if anyone has found an increase rate of psychosis in any of these states with legalised marijuana use. Ditto if somehow SA suffers more than the rest of the country. Or Holland.

I'm not convinced on this popular argument against pot. As long as marijuana is illegal and a mixture of socially ostracised and socially proscribed, I don't see how there can be a clear test of any connections. We don't know who's using, for how long, in what quantities, how strong it is, what method of ingestion, what underlying conditions they had, what it was combined with, what happened whilst they were stoned etc etc. It's easy enough to say that some large number of people diagnosed with schitzophrenia has smoked pot, but that doesn't make a clear connection (most have them have probably eaten Smarties as well). And there's a bunch of reasons why people with mental illness are overrepresented in drug using groups - self medication, acceptance into social group, social difficulties that lead them to living in certain socio-economic conditions with higher drug use and availability.

Whilst I'd hardly say just go for it with any drug, legal or otherwise, i think there's a lot of fear mongering around pot, and the evidence for problems from alcohol and tobacco is way more consistant and problematic. But anything you are going to be taking for pain relief is going to have sideeffects. Codeine is addictive and leaves you constipated. Valium is addictive. It interferes with your everyday capacity to do things safely as you wander around in a sleepy haze. Nurofen stuffs your guts up. The list goes on.


evanbb

1-Dec-2010
8:48:06 AM

On 30/11/2010 Sabu wrote:
>For instance: a 2006 (Ranganathan & D’Souza) review concluded that cannabinoids
>impair all stages of memory functioning.
>Consistent with this finding previous research suggests that THC causes
>neuronal shrinkage and death in hippocampal neurons and that THC neurotoxicity
>may underlie some of the memory deficits associated with cannabis use (Chan
>et al., 1998).
>
>I'm sure, as others have suggested, there are better alternatives.

And I would argue that a lot of the alternatives have very similar properties. I've had a few pain killers in my time and by far the worst was one of these synthetic opiates modified to be less addictive.

There are obviously side effects of all drugs; just listing some of them doesn't mean that marijuana might not be useful. Applying the 'are there negative side effects' test to cigarettes or alcohol doesn't leave them looking too flash either. Again I would argue that legalising would allow us a much better chance to monitor these side effects and mitigate them. There have certainly been some really positive results with the heroin injecting room in Kings Cross.

The argument for legalising is almost a simple economic one; the more illegal they make it, the more it is worth and fuels crime syndicates. Alcohol prohibition meant an increase in police spending (I know, I've seen the Untouchables) and an increase in organised crime. Many bad people have got rich by selling drugs. Take it out of their hands, regulate the industry and tax the shit out of it.


DavidC

1-Dec-2010
8:53:07 AM

Wendy here is a recent study
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/5/440

No study is perfect. For increased psychosis in states with legalised marijuana first you would need to prove this caused increased general use and then increase pyschosis. Would need to be a very big study.

Wendy

1-Dec-2010
9:11:54 AM

On 1/12/2010 DavidC wrote:
>Wendy here is a recent study
> http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/5/440
>
>No study is perfect. For increased psychosis in states with legalised
>marijuana first you would need to prove this caused increased general use
>and then increase pyschosis. Would need to be a very big study.
>

Yup, a very big study ... but there seems to be a lot of more emotion than fact fuelled claiming (in general not in psychology) that legalising would do both. Surely someone would have at least attempted a study in one of these states with decriminalised or legal use?

I am aware of studies such as that one, and they admit there are concerns with uncontrolable variables, but i still think there are limits, such as how people report their illicit drug use in these studies, and effects of prexisting social, mental and health issues in the choice to use, how, when, why, how much, how often, level of addiction etc etc. Which is not to say there are not some genuine side effects in the studies, but there are probably a bunch of other factors effecting them and fear mongering by media/politicians blames them all on those nasty illicit drugs. I certainly don't think it's a reason to not legalise pot (i support decriminalising all drugs actually, it would limit a whole bunch of problems attached to them).

As a community, we tend to accept that legal drugs are somehow better for us, but if you read the whole info sheet on standard pain killers, the list of side effects is rather long, and some of them rather gruesome. But they identify which ones are more or less common. If we had a sheet like that for pot, I suspect that psychosis would be in the way less common side effects part.


DavidC

1-Dec-2010
9:34:32 AM

I agree links between marijuana and psychosis should not be an arguement against legalising it.

As mention before all drugs have side effects , I think the bigger problem is that a lot of people think that anything "natural" doesn't or over the counter drugs are "safe". Most people realise that prescription drug do.


Sabu

1-Dec-2010
9:37:49 AM

On 1/12/2010 Wendy wrote:
>and the evidence for
>problems from alcohol and tobacco is way more consistant and problematic.

On 1/12/2010 Wendy wrote:
>As a community, we tend to accept that legal drugs are somehow better
>for us.

I have an article you might like. They ranked the harms of substance misuse to individuals and others for all substances including alcohol and tobacco. Out of the 20 substances they found that alcohol was overall the most harmful substance followed by heroin and crack. Tobacco was 6th and cannabis was 8th. LSD and mushrooms were 18th and 20th respectively.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/abstract

Wendy

1-Dec-2010
10:02:40 AM

On 1/12/2010 Sabu wrote:

>
>I have an article you might like. They ranked the harms of substance misuse
>to individuals and others for all substances including alcohol and tobacco.
>Out of the 20 substances they found that alcohol was overall the most harmful
>substance followed by heroin and crack. Tobacco was 6th and cannabis was
>8th. LSD and mushrooms were 18th and 20th respectively.
>
>http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/abstract
>

that does seem a sensible approach to assessing what we should be concerned about. I guess tobacco has somewhat less harm to other people in that it doesn't make people engage in risktaking behaviour, or more impulsive, reduce judgement and self control etc etc. It says a lot about alcohol that it is legal and still causes the greatest amount of harm! I wonder how that would shift if we changed to a legalised system and removed a bunch of the socioeconomic problems associeted with smack. It's a complicated assessment to make all round though - effects of sharing a closed house or car with smokers or poor parenting when out of their heads or phsyical violence when normal self restraints are removed by booze, be it in the home, street or bar or crime to get $ or spreading disease through unsafe prostituting or pushing drugs on the streets, bloody hell, which is the greatest harm???


Sabu

1-Dec-2010
10:35:25 AM

On 1/12/2010 Wendy wrote:
>It says a lot about alcohol that it is legal and still causes the greatest amount of harm!

Exactly! And of all the substances thats the one most people start with and some at a rather young age.

Substance use has a crazy amount of variables that makes it such a pain in the ass for research. Doesn't help that such research is relied upon and required for policy making and health recommendations.

widewetandslippery

1-Dec-2010
11:00:25 AM

Getting back on topic, self management of back pain, I have found the psychological aspects to be the hardest to deal with. I am not hyperactive but I am active by nature. Being sore and unable to do stuff is a downer. Booze and drugs are THE BEST TEMPORARY solution. Nothing like gout to take your mind off a bad back;)

Get prescription drugs. If your back is giving you regular bad nights sleep get a horse pill. You need sleep to function, particuarly if you have chronic pain. Booze gets you to sleep but doesn't always keep you there.

Above mentiond is yoga, pilates etc. This is good. As much for the regular activity involvement in your life as the exercise itself. I've found using a swiss ball really helps

I also found getting a proper diagnosis really helped. Knowledge whats going on allows good decision making as to how you treat symtoms.


E. Wells

3-Dec-2010
3:24:28 PM

Ado, I have used alot of mj from a young age and i personally think that it will offer you no relief from any of these maladies you mention, especially the muscle fatigue. Yoga and swimming may be more helpfull. Whilst on the subject of dope, it is interesting when people cite some accomplished sport climber being a big smoker as though implying it is somehow advantagious. I think these un-named green machines have an extraordinary amount of energy to spare, and would perform even better without the toke and remember the redpoint too!?... and if you do become a zombie for medicinal purposes, grow your own, because the bussiness is awful.


ado_m

3-Dec-2010
4:01:49 PM

Yep - Dangermouth you're dead right on that one, the pot did nothing for my back, it just got me high as a kite, back still hurt like hell. I'm going to combine the pot with an xbox and a large packet of twisties to make sure, but I'm thinking that it's a waste of time and I'd be better off sticking to swimming 1-2km a day which is my current mental therepy.

I volunteer at a mental health legal clinic. Totally adhoc observation, but from 4 years volunteering I see such a disproportionate number of clients who call up who talk about their drug use/abuse. Whether it's chicken or egg or just correlation who knows, not me, but there is some complex connection.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-Dec-2010
5:04:46 PM

On 30/11/2010 Macciza wrote:
>It is not a 'gateway' to aid climbing . . .
>
Glad to hear that!


Sabu

3-Dec-2010
5:30:20 PM

On 3/12/2010 ado_m wrote:
>I volunteer at a mental health legal clinic. Totally adhoc observation,
>but from 4 years volunteering I see such a disproportionate number of clients
>who call up who talk about their drug use/abuse. Whether it's chicken
>or egg or just correlation who knows, not me, but there is some complex
>connection.

Yep its a very common thing, one we had to be careful of in our research. For example, individuals with depression or anxiety sometimes use substances as a means of escapism or coping. Another example is some disorders generate dishinhibition which can then lead to risk taking behaviour and substance use. I think this is quite common in individuals with personality disorders (who often have comorbid mental health issues as well).
Then there are disorders such as drug induced psychosis, which as the name suggests, are brought on by chronic substance use (often stimulants).

richardo

3-Dec-2010
8:40:13 PM

On 3/12/2010 Sabu wrote
>
>Yep its a very common thing, one we had to be careful of in our research.
>For example, individuals with depression or anxiety sometimes use substances
>as a means of escapism or coping. Another example is some disorders generate
>dishinhibition which can then lead to risk taking behaviour and substance
>use. I think this is quite common in individuals with personality disorders
>(who often have comorbid mental health issues as well).
>Then there are disorders such as drug induced psychosis, which as the
>name suggests, are brought on by chronic substance use (often stimulants).

sounds like most climbers i know.

climberman

3-Dec-2010
8:53:21 PM

I had dinner with a couple of senior NSW health folsk recently, who work in the mental health area. They figure in that recentish general consideration in their professional peers was about 12% of regular long term potsmokers get a level of mental health problems. About 50% of those (so 6% overall) are cases of serious psychosis of the kind that sees you hospitalised, generally involuntarily.

On a more anecdotal level every one I know who's gone mad to the level requiring hospitalisations (around half a dozen) has had chronic pot use as a common abuse problem. They did vary their other intakes though (mushrooms - induced psychosis and successful suicide; speed - paranoid psychosis; acid - just went mad, is still a loose unit 20 years on; and others). The alchoholics really just have been involved in major physical trauma (car accidents or general falls and whatnot), as serious liver damage seems to require long term dedication. Or maybe I got over hanging with alco's.


Macciza

5-Jan-2011
1:49:41 AM

Simply had to post this report -

Title Reposition of a dislocated shoulder under use of cannabis.
Author(s) Schweizer A, Bircher HP.
Journal, Volume, Issue Wilderness Environ Med. 2009 Fall;20(3):301-2.
Major outcome(s) Pain and muscular tone decreased and the shoulder was relocated easily.
Indication Spasticity;Pain Abstract
Medication Cannabis
No abstract available.

From the IACM-Bulletin:

Doctors of the University of Zurich and the Kantonsspital Zug, Switzerland, reported of the use of cannabis to facilitate the reposition of a dislocated shoulder in a rock climber. Without cannabis the athletic 22-year-old patient had very high muscular tone, and after 20 minutes the shoulder still could not be relocated. Another climber who was present mentioned that he was carrying cannabis with him. With the intention to induce muscular relaxation, the patient agreed to inhalational administration of cannabis. He took several deep inhalations and after approximately 5 minutes, the pain and muscular tone decreased considerably, and the shoulder was relocated easily on the first try.

Doctors wrote that in the "described case the muscle relaxant effect of cannabis was quite remarkable, as repositioning the dislocated shoulder was accomplished with ease after cannabis administration." They concluded that "cannabis ingredients may be effective in certain circumstances as an emergency muscle relaxant."

Route(s) Inhalation
Dose(s) some puffs of a cannabis cigarette
Duration (days) 1
Participants 1 patient with dislocated shoulder
Design Uncontrolled case report
Type of publication Medical journal
Address of author(s) University Clinic Balgrist, Orthopedic Department, Zürich, Switzerland
Full text


Sabu

5-Jan-2011
11:00:55 AM

Interesting.

That also reminded me to post this up, it was a documentary that aired on sbs the other night.

http://player.sbs.com.au/programs#/programs_08/fullepisodes/fullep_documentary/playlist/Cannabis-The-Evil-Weed-Full-Ep/


salty crag

5-Jan-2011
11:53:58 AM

Interesting thread. I suffered a significant back injury some years ago and endured bulk pain with all the side effects, hell for me, wife and kids as well. Had an op which helped but I'm left with cronic pain. Tried MJ, didn't work for me, hate taking prescribed pain relief because of side effects. Sat down with an old buddy one night who had just survived his second bout of cancer treatment and talked about it and now follow his advise. Study the pain and break it down into categories ie. even chronic pain varies in intensity, level, location etc. Understanding the different types of pain and triggers can help you moderate,avoid, adjust, cope. Not all pain is bad (not talking sport type stuff here). After 5 years of pain I now know what I can and can't get away with. Swimming causes me heaps of acute pain with cramps and spasms but after the acute effects stop I feel great so I swim heaps, just whinge and moan heaps when I get out of the water. I still surf, climb (badly), play hockey, skip rope, modified weights, yoga and stretching (hurts like hell but once again good) and lead a very fun life. All injury/pain are different so spend some time looking at yours and listen to your body. Medicated pain relief is still needed but not a really exciting long term fix.

Wendy

5-Jan-2011
12:40:50 PM

On 5/01/2011 Macciza wrote:
Another climber who was present mentioned that he was
>carrying cannabis with him. With the intention to induce muscular relaxation,
>the patient agreed to inhalational administration of cannabis. He took
>several deep inhalations and after approximately 5 minutes, the pain and
>muscular tone decreased considerably, and the shoulder was relocated easily
>on the first try.

love the paraphrasing of "Fred Nerk pulled out a spliff and said suck on this mate, you'll feel better. Joe bloggs gratefully accepted said spliff and toked enthusiastically. Shortly after he was giggling uncontrolably, barely noticed the doctors faffing with his shoulder and nodded off"

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