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Fall at Cliffhanger climbing gym


westie

29-Mar-2007
9:07:37 AM

On 28/03/2007 tnd wrote:
>On 28/03/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>>the left hand feeds rope up while
>>the right disengages the outo lock feature,

Perhaps I have this wrong but if my leader wanted some slack I'd disengage the gri-gri brake with my left hand (I'm right handed) and cover the rope with my right behind the brake. He pulls through the slack (potential hard man) and I let go with my left if he falls and grab with my right (loosely). On a belay device I'm covering with both hands.

gfdonc

29-Mar-2007
10:07:14 AM

In the aftermath of this accident, there was lots of self-imposed (within our group) reviewing of belay technique and clipping technique last night at Cliffhanger. (courtesy of Jen the belay-policewoman who fortunately is offline today). Can never harm to be reviewing each other and discussing ideas.

One thing that came out of it (for me) was to move my hand down into the lock position when the leader goes to clip.

Traditionally I've had my belay hand up slightly (without really realising it) thus in a better position to pull an armful of rope back in, if they drop the rope or change their mind (or even start to fall). But the suggestion was to move into the lock position in case the worst happens.

Food for thought. Make your own judgements. Climb safer.

Travis

29-Mar-2007
2:58:46 PM

Interesting to read about this accident. I have ever only used an ATC when belaying or rappelling and only the Gri Gri a handful of times in climbing gyms. When I use the ATC I always make sure to put my right hand (I am right handed) in the "lock position" after taking in slack once the climber makes a move. I've never really had an issue with the ATC but then again I've never really belayed a dead fall on one either.

I am interested to learn the proper technique for paying out slack using the Gri Gri next time I'm in the gym. What do you reckon?


dave h.

29-Mar-2007
5:59:19 PM

Some people have shown me the following technique (Hard to describe... always best to get someone you trust who uses GriGris a lot to show you... and compare with what others do... now that disclaimers are over...).

Assume you're a right hander. Right hand = brake hand, left = climber's side hand

When they need slack, grasp the GriGri with your right hand. Yank slack through with your left. Note that the thumb shouldn't be between the rope holes of the GriGri (thus stopping cam from moving). You squeeze the grigri between your fingers and the base of your thumb (or whatever that big bit of flesh between the thumb and wrist is called); this pressure keeps the GriGri from locking while feeding slack.

I'm by no means an expert so don't take my word for it...

29-Mar-2007
6:08:16 PM

What difference does the belay device make if you are using two ropes? It's stated in the intro to the SW Vic guide that using two ropes can reduce the distance of a fall, even, or especially, at The Youies (or should that be You'ies? Or even Youeys?). You are 'protected' whilst hauling in the slack to clip the next piece because there is no slack between you and the last piece on the other rope. This was common knowledge over twenty years ago. I've nearly always climbed using two ropes: on wandering trad to reduce rope drag and on non-wandering trad routes to reduce any possible fall distance (as a wiser man than me once said "sport climbing is neither"). Why would you use only one rope and increase the possible fall distance? Ego? 'Cos you're a 'macho man'? 'Cos you're not going to fall? 'Cos it is soooo heavy? Or because it's not trendy?

Why?


tnd

30-Mar-2007
7:46:48 AM

Coming out with that hackneyed old lame attempt at humour "sport climbing is neither" destroys your credibility. Get over it.


westie

30-Mar-2007
8:42:09 AM

On 29/03/2007 Travis wrote:

>I am interested to learn the proper technique for paying out slack using
>the Gri Gri next time I'm in the gym. What do you reckon?

Oh c'mon. you weren't that bad last week... a bit tight maybe - but then again I didn't fall either...


PreferKnitting

30-Mar-2007
9:14:18 AM

On 29/03/2007 gfdonc wrote:

>One thing that came out of it (for me) was to move my hand down into the
>lock position when the leader goes to clip.
>
>Traditionally I've had my belay hand up slightly (without really realising
>it) thus in a better position to pull an armful of rope back in, if they
>drop the rope or change their mind (or even start to fall). But the suggestion
>was to move into the lock position in case the worst happens.

I would have to agree. I've seen heaps of people with their 'brake' hand up in the air. I guess, this was just an accident that could have happened to anyone. But it was just bad luck to happen to them.


sticky

30-Mar-2007
10:11:18 AM

On 29/03/2007 BA wrote:

>Why would you use only one rope and increase the possible fall distance?
>Ego? 'Cos you're a 'macho man'? 'Cos you're not going to fall? 'Cos it
>is soooo heavy? Or because it's not trendy?
>
>Why?

I'm climbing on doubles these days. Feels a bit odd on a sport route though - prefer a single - but on trad, nothing else. But to answer your question - why climb on a single rope?

1. You climb what you're used to. People learn climbing at the gym these days, where you use a single rope.
2. Everyone else uses single ropes too. In the UK, everyone uses doubles and no-one wears a helmet. In the US, they don't know what hexes look like but they all seem to have tricams - it's just the prevailing way. The prevailing way here is to use single ropes.
3. Ropes are bloody expensive. I couldn't afford doubles until fairly recently.

I don't think trendy has anything to do with it.

gfdonc

30-Mar-2007
10:31:48 AM

On 29/03/2007 BA wrote:
> Why would you use only one rope and increase the possible fall distance?

I climb on both doubles and singles but mainly the latter - probably 35% vs 65%.
Single rope is simpler. The K.I.S.S. principle rules.
I also prefer the handling of a full-size rope (easier to catch) vs the skinnier half ropes.
I climb on doubles if the route wanders or if I know there's a long rap off, or if I'm feeling sketchy.

As mentioned a while ago, if you're on single ropes, use a longer sling to pre-clip a piece i.e. clip first on a 60cm sling at your waist (without having to pull the rope up) then get settled and clip the shorter 'draw. I also find being clipped in twice reassuring on run-out bolted routes.

You forgot to mention one other advantage of doubles - the possibility of equalising fall forces between two clipped pieces i.e. reducing the force on a single piece of gear.
- Steve


anthonyk

30-Mar-2007
10:57:11 AM

afaik half ropes are not designed to take repeated falls like you do with sport climbing, you'll destroy them quickly.

gfdonc

30-Mar-2007
11:23:37 AM

Yes & this is mostly why I climb on singles when pushing past my onsight limit.

patto

30-Mar-2007
1:53:14 PM

I suppose I use singles because everybody else uses them.

I have used doubles but I FAR prefer singles due to the KISS reason.

Sure doubles might have numerous advatages over singles but:

*They are more difficult to belay with and to catch falls with. This is a large drawback if you often climb with inexperienced people. Though if your climbing with inexperienced people you shouldn't be falling.
*They are more hassle to deal with at belay ledges, especially hanging belays.
*They are wear more easily.

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