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Fall at Cliffhanger climbing gym


billk

28-Mar-2007
1:26:11 PM

On 28/03/2007 westie wrote:
>Was he leading on the wall where the crash mats were removed a few months
>ago? the steep textured wall with climbs 21+??

No, he was leading on the overhung wall to the right of the doorway to the outside climbs and left of the slab.

I did not see the fall but the facts as I was told them are listed in Tim's and John's posts above.


muki

28-Mar-2007
1:42:44 PM

It is irrelevant as to what sort of belay devise was used.
All belay devises do a superb job of doing what they are designed for.
The belayer had rope burns, so the rope was running through a runner higher up on the wall, and then
caused friction that burned his hands as the rope continued to pay out.
IMO it is possible that when feeding slack for a clip using a Gri Gri, the left hand feeds rope up while
the right disengages the outo lock feature, then having the leader fall it creates a panic situation of
having the belayer try to hold the fall with the only hand that is on the rope at that time! the left hand.
pulling down on the rope that feeds up to the climber from a Gri Gri, prevents the right amount of force
to be applied to the auto locking cam inside the devise, allowing the rope to continue to run.
eventually the belayers hands will burn to the point that they will let go!, but on a fall from the second
clip it's too late, the climber has allready decked out.
I speak from personal experience here, this exact same situation has happened to me at the gym.

gfdonc

28-Mar-2007
1:53:09 PM

Thanks Tim and JohnK for sharing the info. News travels fast (I received a phone call last night by one of the witnesses) and we are all concerned for the wellbeing of the people involved and seeking to learn from this.

Wisecracks about hoping the person doesn't touch real rock are premature and unwarranted IMHO.

Gravity still works the same in a gym as outdoors. Rules about the amount of rope out and fall distances still apply. My experience - popped off a 24 last year (on the opposite wall to the accident) just as I was about to clip above my head at about the 6m mark. With the last draw well below my feet and an armful of slack I knew I was in for a long ride. Pulled up just 20cm off the deck, with thanks to my belayer. In looking at this again the fall length was unavoidable given the rope lengths involved.

So my advice:
- belayers, be vigilant when your partner is clipping.
- be happy with your belay device. Can you hold a fall satisfactorily on a shiny new, 9.7mm rope with your old, worn ATC? A new ATC-XP can be found for under $40.
- leaders, climb to the clips rather than reefing in lots of rope. In my example above, the next time I climbed one move higher and clipped at my waist - much lower risk.


neats

28-Mar-2007
1:55:04 PM

Great advice Steve. It's always good to be reminded of these things.


tnd

28-Mar-2007
2:34:11 PM

On 28/03/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>...IMO it is possible that when feeding slack for a clip using a Gri Gri,
>the left hand feeds rope up while
>the right disengages the outo lock feature, then having the leader fall
>it creates a panic situation of
>having the belayer try to hold the fall with the only hand that is on
>the rope at that time! the left hand.
>pulling down on the rope that feeds up to the climber from a Gri Gri,
>prevents the right amount of force
>to be applied to the auto locking cam inside the devise, allowing the
>rope to continue to run.
>eventually the belayers hands will burn to the point that they will let
>go!...

Spot on bomber, IMO this is the main failure mode when using a Gri Gri. (And it's not the GG that's failing, it's the user).


kezza

28-Mar-2007
2:45:50 PM

How many threads must we have on Gri Gri failure? You guys love it, Gri Gri's weren't even mentioned in the accident and the debate pops up!!!

Hope our climber has a super dooper speedy recovery!!!

Sending out my wishes to Tom for a problem free rehab, and hope your back on rock as soon as you can!

Climb safe you crazy cats!


billk

28-Mar-2007
2:56:17 PM

On 28/03/2007 gfdonc wrote:
>Thanks Tim and JohnK for sharing the info. News travels fast (I received
>a phone call last night by one of the witnesses) and we are all concerned
>for the wellbeing of the people involved and seeking to learn from this.

There are also some first aid lessons.

Number one is that having recently done a first aid course, I was more confident about what to do than if I had to think it through on the spot. So if you get the opportunity to do a first aid course, grab it.


JJ

28-Mar-2007
3:20:32 PM

On 28/03/2007 tnd wrote:
>On 28/03/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>>...IMO it is possible that when feeding slack for a clip using a Gri
>Gri,
>>the left hand feeds rope up while
>>the right disengages the outo lock feature, then having the leader fall
>>it creates a panic situation of
>>having the belayer try to hold the fall with the only hand that is on
>>the rope at that time! the left hand.
>>pulling down on the rope that feeds up to the climber from a Gri Gri,
>>prevents the right amount of force
>>to be applied to the auto locking cam inside the devise, allowing the
>>rope to continue to run.
>>eventually the belayers hands will burn to the point that they will let
>>go!...
>
>Spot on bomber, IMO this is the main failure mode when using a Gri Gri.

What about the rope diameter?

Who said they were using a Gri go?

None of us can comment/pass judgement without the facts.

>(And it's not the GG that's failing, it's the user).
I agree with you tnd about the user failing.

JJ


anthonyk

28-Mar-2007
3:44:28 PM

On 28/03/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>It is irrelevant as to what sort of belay devise was used.
>All belay devises do a superb job of doing what they are designed for.
>The belayer had rope burns, so the rope was running through a runner higher
>up on the wall, and then
>caused friction that burned his hands as the rope continued to pay out.
>IMO it is possible that when feeding slack for a clip using a Gri Gri,
>the left hand feeds rope up while
> ...

the type of grigri failure you've described has been pointed out a number of times, but if it was an ATC or other problem thats a different story. yes i am interested if it happened from someone just not holding the tail tight enough on an ATC, or they weren't quite paying attention or if it was a grigri over-gripping problem, so you know what can happen. a lot of the time you assume you're doing things right but if an accident happens it shows that maybe the way you do things needs a look in to.


Cliffhanger

28-Mar-2007
3:56:54 PM

As i understand it, a GRIGRI was not being used in this instance.

Once again though guys, we have a climber and belayer who are both having a bad day today, let's not judge them or speculate about good belaying, bad belaying, bloody GriGri's and the like without all the facts - let's just support them through this tough time.

rolsen

28-Mar-2007
3:58:34 PM

Last Wednesday night at Nuna they had a lead climbing lesson thingy - I was not part of it and do not know what went on but much of the belaying (and climbing) that I observed was extremely dubious.

Way too much slack, hands too close to the belay device, climbers hauling in rope to clip high above their heads and climbers stepping over ropes and obviously not aware of the consequences of doing this (two different climbers in the space of 5 minutes while I was watching). The person belaying next to me at one stage looked very dangerous with way too much slack which because of the angle too which she was standing from the wall had hooked around a jug - I can only imagine what might happen in a fall.

I stood there for a few minutes deciding if I should offer help or go speak to the supervisors to suggest they offer more advice or help - in the end I decided not to be one of "those people" but reading this thread makes you think.

Richard

PS. This is not a response to the accident in question, just topical as this only occurred one week before this latest accident.

PensionerPower

28-Mar-2007
5:47:38 PM

On 28/03/2007 gfdonc wrote:

>- leaders, climb to the clips rather than reefing in lots of rope. In
> my example above, the next time I climbed one move higher and
> clipped at my waist - much lower risk.

Why so? If you peel off from the higher position, you have a greater chance of hitting the deck. And you can't assume that the higher postion is necessarily easier to hang from, than the lower one. Perhaps the low position is juggy & the higher one is the crux!

PP


anthonyk

28-Mar-2007
5:50:58 PM

On 28/03/2007 PensionerPower wrote:
>Why so? If you peel off from the higher position, you have a greater chance
>of hitting the deck. And you can't assume that the higher postion is necessarily
>easier to hang from, than the lower one. Perhaps the low position is juggy
>& the higher one is the crux!

in general there's less rope out clipping from your waist then reaching up from below but of course its not always going to be black and white

PensionerPower

28-Mar-2007
5:52:04 PM

On 28/03/2007 PensionerPower wrote:

> If you peel off from the higher position, you have a greater chance
>of hitting the deck.

Oops. I guess the same amount of rope is out, whichever postion you clip from.

> And you can't assume that the higher postion is necessarily
> easier to hang from, than the lower one. Perhaps the low position is juggy
>& the higher one is the crux!

But I do stand by that. So IMHO you can't neccessarily say that it is always safer to climb higher & clip at waist level, rather than stopping lower & pulling out rop to clip up.

Yes? No?

PP

prb

28-Mar-2007
6:09:26 PM

On 28/03/2007 PensionerPower wrote:

>Oops. I guess the same amount of rope is out, whichever postion you clip from.

Err, no. Clipping straight in front of your waist minimises the length of rope between you and your belayer. Think about it. Whether it's best to do this in a particular situation, well, it depends, but often it is.


nmonteith

28-Mar-2007
6:20:48 PM

and with a whole bunch of rope in your hands lots can go wrong if you fall off. If your clipping at your
waist the rope is neatly going straight down to your belayer. On steep routes i almost always clip at my
waist as it takes less energy (unless its a killer jug).

-deano-

28-Mar-2007
6:28:38 PM

maybe this will help you PP.

the red dots are bolts.

person on left is clipping above head.
person on right is clipping at waist.

there is more light blue rope out than dark blue rope.

visualise what happens if our intrepid climber falls while attempting to clip...

PensionerPower

28-Mar-2007
7:08:36 PM

I get it. Thanks deano & neil. I got half way through doing my own MS-Paint diagram, but forgot my trigonometry.

As my profile says, I climb mainly indoors. I did lots of indoor leading at the old West Terrace gym in Adelaide, but that closed years ago. They had a few rather dicey leads (for a gym), and I was pleased to have completed those, given my relatively advanced age (think: your father!) & lack of outdoor climbing.

So last year, I decided to hop back on at Holden Hill. I headed up an easy overhang, 10 grades below my toprope limit. Much wailing & gnashing of teeth ensued. Tears were shed! Pants were s*t. The climb was, how shall I put it, "terminated prematurely" :-)

PP

simey

28-Mar-2007
7:30:59 PM

I find when leading a climb, I am always talking to my belayer when things are getting dicey. The last thing I want is my belayer checking out hot chicks (or hot guys), or being distracted in some other way, particularly when I sense that my chances of falling are reaching crisis point.

The calls of 'Watch me' or 'I'm fading' lets my belayer know the urgency of the situation.

Nowadays I usually warn my belayer about my impending failure somewhere around the vicinity of the first clip.

28-Mar-2007
9:29:48 PM

On 28/03/2007 simey wrote:
>The calls of 'Watch me' or 'I'm fading' lets my belayer know the urgency
>of the situation.

yes, let the belayer know (when possible), even to the point of annoyance

>
>Nowadays I usually warn my belayer about my impending failure somewhere
>around the vicinity of the first clip.
>

maybe some people get used to grigris and think other belay devices operate similarly?

There are 53 messages in this topic.