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IdratherbeclimbingM9

31-May-2017
9:47:52 PM

On 30/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>(snip)
>Ever thought that they may enjoy passing on what they know?
>Or enjoy the company of younger folks when a lot of their peers simply don't do or understand more adventurous activities?
>(snip)
and One Day Hero replied:
>Pffffff, hahahaha

RAB's statement sums up a number of Buffalo Aidfests for mine...
;-)

Chockstone Moderator

1-Jun-2017
2:53:31 PM

On 31/05/2017 dalai wrote:
>On 30/05/2017 Martym wrote:
>
>>Mods you should Nuke this thread.
>
>As mentioned above, as long as people can be civil it is opening an interesting
>discussion of procedures / calls used by the climbing community.
>
>I as one of the mods will not Nuke this thread. Can't speak for the others
>though as they may feel differently.

I conferred with Dalai about your proposal (before he posted his reply), and we are in agreement so I won't be nuking it either, though there are several other Moderators, some of whom haven't logged on for a while and as such may be out of the recent developments loop.

widewetandslippery

1-Jun-2017
4:56:51 PM

The banter of course doesnt worry me but it does show people do stuff differently and communication with a new partner prior to going up is important, see no reason to nuke. BTW I have been threading and looked down to see the belayer had wandered off, off belay on one draw, numerous expletives and I was back on belay.

rightarmbad

4-Jun-2017
9:40:18 PM

You should have just leaned back on the rope as that is the thing to do apparently.

widewetandslippery

4-Jun-2017
9:48:39 PM

I expect no matter what method you use you do not take the leader off belay unless directly and clearly told to by them

rightarmbad

5-Jun-2017
2:46:29 AM

Well seeing as the belayer may have come from an area where it is normal to abseil and clean you are both idiots for not discussing it beforehand.
The belayer and climber are both pretty stupid to assume an action/procedure will take place when at such a critical time.
You have no idea of the history, you need to have safeguards, look after yourself.

I climbed with two young people who already knew each other and the young guy got to the anchors, re-thread and dropped onto the rope just a moment after I had noticed that the young girl had taken her hand off the brake hand while he was re-threading, I grabbed the rope and just stated to say something as he dropped onto the rope.

He did what he sometimes did and she did what she always did.
Where she climbs, China, there is no expectation to belay whilst the climber is re-threading, only after the climber asks to take up the slack and ask for tension.
Different cultures, different areas, different expectations, languages and calls.
We all sat down and had a discussion before anymore climbing.

Jumping off onto the rope after re-threading is just as dangerous as letting go of the brake strand.


Goshen

5-Jun-2017
10:20:43 AM

>>Jumping off onto the rope after re-threading is just as dangerous as letting go of the brake strand [or going off belay].

Agreed - so the only way to apportion blame is 100% to each the climber and belayer.... However, the more I think about it, the more that the situation appears to be more preventable by the climber - if they just hadn't slumped onto the rope before the belayer takes in, at least.

Both parties are making assumptions about the other partner; but only one of them has the motivation of death or serious injury if that assumption is wrong. Therefore, I reckon I can change my opinion of responsibility to 80% climber, 20% belayer - in your particular scenario, sorry ODH.

Pommy

5-Jun-2017
11:39:23 AM

I think it's fair to say that both sides are 100% wrong in doing what they did.
If the climber landed on the belayer, it would probably be a fair outcome.


Goshen

5-Jun-2017
2:59:41 PM

>But nope, two out of the three people responding have allocated 200% of blame

Not without intentional irony. 50% each just doesn't portray the idiocy of the situation.

Wendy

5-Jun-2017
3:46:47 PM

On 5/06/2017 Goshen wrote:

>
>Both parties are making assumptions about the other partner; but only
>one of them has the motivation of death or serious injury if that assumption
>is wrong. Therefore, I reckon I can change my opinion of responsibility
>to 80% climber, 20% belayer - in your particular scenario, sorry ODH.

Dunno about you, but i'd feel more than 20% responsible if i'd taken someone off belay and they fell in that situation. Sure, the climber has the added motivation of ensuring they are not going to die. The belayer has the added motivation of ensuring someone else isn't going to die. Don't know that that should be any less of a motivation.

Said "cultural practice" just sounds wrong. I mean, why would you even bother taking someone off belay for the brief amount of time it takes to rethread anyway? Sure, I pile out a bunch of slack. I've probably got them on a cinch so if I actually ate ham and pickle sandwiches, I might take a bite of one. Or I'd tie off an atc to do so. But they'd still be effectively on belay the whole time.
>
>
>
>
>
>


Goshen

5-Jun-2017
4:01:13 PM

>How do you deal with these situations?

Exactly as you describe you should ;-) But that wasn't your example.

I have been in situations where you can't see / hear the belayer and you want to be lowered from the anchor. You simply hold the other (lead end of the) rope and feed/pull yourself down a bit until they get the idea or you can communicate. After all, if they can't see you, they might have thought you were stuck somewhere, or just needed some slack.

Even 'jumping onto' the rope here doesn't help things, they might just think you'd fallen. Would you be impressed if they started lowering you from the last bolt on the 3rd Pitch of world party, thinking you were at the anchors and ready to come down?


Goshen

5-Jun-2017
5:25:08 PM

>How did you know you were still on belay?

Because I trust my belayer not to take me off mid route or unless told to!! Which is your point all along - but I was backing the other side of the story, because of the examples of climbing with completely unknown people, etc etc.

Also - and this is not a minor point - the very act of holding onto the other side 'lead' rope, on a long pitch with a bit of drag, is that if the belayer HAS in fact done a runner, you can control your own decent for a while. However, I don't want to labour on it - nowhere is this actually recommended, and I can only remember bothering to do it on very rare occasions - but still, in the circumstances it just made sense.

Martym

5-Jun-2017
6:02:48 PM

On 1/06/2017 Chockstone Moderator wrote:
>On 31/05/2017 dalai wrote:
>>On 30/05/2017 Martym wrote:
>>
>>>Mods you should Nuke this thread.
>>
>>As mentioned above, as long as people can be civil it is opening an interesting
>>discussion of procedures / calls used by the climbing community.
>>
>>I as one of the mods will not Nuke this thread. Can't speak for the others
>>though as they may feel differently.
>
>I conferred with Dalai about your proposal (before he posted his reply),
>and we are in agreement so I won't be nuking it either, though there are
>several other Moderators, some of whom haven't logged on for a while and
>as such may be out of the recent developments loop.

I was merely quoting ODH who said that in about the 10th reply to the original post. I didn't actually think you'd consider it. However I'm still sad that it has deteriorated.

He seems to have changed his mind though:

On 5/06/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>This is where we needed to get to 3 pages ago. I find it really interesting
>(and disturbing) to read the answers so far. Better to know about it though.


JMK

5-Jun-2017
7:37:47 PM

Re odh scenario I apportion 100% fault to the belayer. the climber should be able to just bomb on to the rope as the unexpected happens.

In saying that I, as an increasingly cautious person would check first that my belayer has me. This is akin to taking off at traffic lights that have turned green . You should be safe and any person running a red light and hitting you would be 100% at fault. This would not help you however as you would still be dead so maybe check, if feasibl, for a speeding car.

thus default should be keep climber on belay and climber trust that is the case, but perhaps check if feasible if you are on belay, before bombing onto the rope as being dead would suck.

Note the key words feasible and default

rightarmbad

5-Jun-2017
11:48:02 PM

Being well over 6 foot and bigger than average, I always grab the belayers side of the rope as they begin to lower me.
Many people get quite a shock at how much force is required to hold and lower a heavier climber.
Especially if they are using Gri Gri's.
I have done this since being dropped several meters twice by very experienced belayers that simply had never had to lower somebody much heavier than themselves.

patto

6-Jun-2017
6:42:44 AM

On 5/06/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>Being well over 6 foot and bigger than average, I always grab the belayers
>side of the rope as they begin to lower me.
>Many people get quite a shock at how much force is required to hold and
>lower a heavier climber.
>Especially if they are using Gri Gri's.
>I have done this since being dropped several meters twice by very experienced
>belayers that simply had never had to lower somebody much heavier than
>themselves.

It is sad that you cannot trust your belayers and feel you have to do this. Though you are certainly not the only one who does this. (I've done this with inexperienced belayers)

Just shows that experience isn't always a good measure of ability.

It really isn't that hard to start off locked off with high tension and grip and reduce until the climber lowers at a reasonable speed.

(The Grigri doesn't help with this process but any 'experienced' belayer should know this.)

Paul

6-Jun-2017
8:49:46 AM

On 6/06/2017 patto wrote:
>On 5/06/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>>Being well over 6 foot and bigger than average, I always grab the belayers
>>side of the rope as they begin to lower me.
>>Many people get quite a shock at how much force is required to hold and
>>lower a heavier climber.
>>Especially if they are using Gri Gri's.
>>I have done this since being dropped several meters twice by very experienced
>>belayers that simply had never had to lower somebody much heavier than
>>themselves.
>
>It is sad that you cannot trust your belayers and feel you have to do
>this. Though you are certainly not the only one who does this. (I've
>done this with inexperienced belayers)
>
>Just shows that experience isn't always a good measure of ability.
>
>It really isn't that hard to start off locked off with high tension and
>grip and reduce until the climber lowers at a reasonable speed.
>
>(The Grigri doesn't help with this process but any 'experienced' belayer
>should know this.)

If you have concern about a belayer being able to hold and lower you, would you not be concerned about their ability to catch you when you fall as well?

Wendy

6-Jun-2017
9:41:45 AM

On 6/06/2017 Paul wrote:
>On 6/06/2017 patto wrote:
>>On 5/06/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>>>Being well over 6 foot and bigger than average, I always grab the belayers
>>>side of the rope as they begin to lower me.
>>>Many people get quite a shock at how much force is required to hold
>and
>>>lower a heavier climber.
>>>Especially if they are using Gri Gri's.
>>>I have done this since being dropped several meters twice by very experienced
>>>belayers that simply had never had to lower somebody much heavier than
>>>themselves.
>>
>>It is sad that you cannot trust your belayers and feel you have to do
>>this. Though you are certainly not the only one who does this. (I've
>>done this with inexperienced belayers)
>>
>>Just shows that experience isn't always a good measure of ability.
>>
>>It really isn't that hard to start off locked off with high tension and
>>grip and reduce until the climber lowers at a reasonable speed.
>>
>>(The Grigri doesn't help with this process but any 'experienced' belayer
>>should know this.)
>
>If you have concern about a belayer being able to hold and lower you,
>would you not be concerned about their ability to catch you when you fall
>as well?
>
>
Agreed, I'd be way more concerned about their ability to catch! Surely a more useful solution to the problem would be some controlled practice? The only other time I have heard anyone advocate holding the belay side of the rope when lowering was Bomberpro. Nuff said. Has anyone actually tried lowering themselves hand over hand like this anyway? It would demonstrate why we use belay devices. chances of holding yourself without any added friction - FA. But if they anyone would like to demonstrate otherwise on the rap off the back of the pharos ...

Dave_S

6-Jun-2017
9:48:42 AM

On 6/06/2017 Wendy wrote:
> Has anyone actually tried lowering themselves hand over hand like this anyway?

Yes, and it's actually not all that difficult. The anchors are acting as a 2:1 pulley with a lot of friction, so you actually only end up having to hold less than half your bodyweight in your hands.

rightarmbad

6-Jun-2017
12:12:36 PM

Yes, I have ascended this way as well as long as your feet can get contact with the wall.

Catching is easier than lowering as it is a lock-off in the devices highest friction geometry.
Lowering has less mechanical advantage and modulating a high force is harder than a low one.

Same as abseiling, there is no way I can go down by sliding my hand on the brake rope, it just burns, I go hand over hand.
Locking off is easy though.

There are 102 messages in this topic.