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QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point

AndreasAachen

25-May-2017
3:36:24 PM

On 25/05/2017 gordoste wrote:
>It would be interesting to see what insurance companies would say if you
>went to them and showed you have these systems in place already. It can't
>really be much different to aviation or rifle clubs.

-Well they asked us to provide a list of all our gear (down to every single nut / biner) and when it has been purchased. -okay can be done
-Then they wanted to know when and where any single piece of gear has been used. -Obviously ridiculous to do with trad gear which is in use for top-rope setup since years
-Next an insurance guy had to come out to inspect all our gear (just the average pencil pusher who has no idea about climbing)
-Overnight trips became a no-go as camping is too dangerous. - Makes araps and gramps trips a bit hard
-Risk assessments had to be made regarding the impact of the environmental noise in the national park on the trip participants
...and so on and so on...As soon as we fulfilled one requirement they came up with something new.

In the end, it looked like they just wanted to bury us underneath bureaucracy to avoid having to deal with us doing any trips....sadly they succeeded...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

25-May-2017
3:47:34 PM

On 25/05/2017 kuu wrote:
>On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>Thanks for the enlightenment ODH.
>>It's been a long time since I climbed in the blueys, and have always
>regarded
>>climbing anything less than a rope-length as practice for the real thing...
>>~> Might have to update my 100 ft manilla now too!
>>;-)
>
>Wasn't your manilla rope 120ft ?
>
>i.e. three equal length pieces cut from the 60 fathom lengths manufactured
>back in those days.
>
>🙂

It was till sadly a feral bilby gnawed on it while I bivied on Tonduron Spire in the Warrumbungles.
Needless to say, I have since stopped donating to the 'save the bilbys' fund...

Part of the 20 ft remainder is quietly rotting away at a belay I set on an obscure multipitch on Lion Island* at Hawkesbury rivermouth... The rest got used as retreat slings on abseil-offs after such shenanigans.

(* Not quite Balls Pyramid, but a suitable poor mans alternative!)


kuu

25-May-2017
4:19:50 PM

On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>It was till sadly a feral bilby gnawed on it while I bivied on Tonduron
>Spire in the Warrumbungles.
>Needless to say, I have since stopped donating to the 'save the bilbys'
>fund...
>
These days (as then) many people climb in the Warrumbungles at Easter when a lot of bilbys are nowadays chocolate coated. Little fear of rope gnawing now. Maybe you should donate to the Save the Bumblys Fund?

Sandym

25-May-2017
4:38:43 PM

Geez, instead of arguing endlessly about whether Sport Climbing Is Neither, blah, blah, blah, communication issues, blah, blah, blah, lowering versus abseiling, blah, blah, blah, the bigger concern is that these kinds of law suits shut down clubs and climbing areas, which impacts all climbers regardless of whether your day of heaven is clipping ring bolts or sketching up some run-out vegetated piece of nastiness in the back of beyond.

Clubs get young folks, maybe even old folks, who don't know anything about climbing into the sport and that is good for everyone. The more climbing is seen as a legitimate activity by the masses, the more opportunities there will be for climbing.

Pommy

25-May-2017
4:41:45 PM

>have some combination of o.c.d. and mild asperger's.

3300+ Chockstone posts!

rightarmbad

25-May-2017
10:12:43 PM

Fact is, if everybody checked they were actually being held on tension by the belayer before removing their safety, this shit doesn't happen.
If this is not part of your climbing routine then you are opening yourself up for an unwanted and nasty surprise.
2 seconds to save your life, seems like a no-brainer to me.

dalai

25-May-2017
11:01:46 PM

On 25/05/2017 Sandym wrote:

>Clubs get young folks, maybe even old folks, who don't know anything about
>climbing into the sport and that is good for everyone. The more climbing
>is seen as a legitimate activity by the masses, the more opportunities
>there will be for climbing.

More people climbing = more impact, more crowding and especially then even more regulation!

lukef

26-May-2017
10:18:59 AM

Have been using "secure" instead of "safe" now with my climbing partners, because "safe" often sounds an aweful lot like "take", both things that could be expected to be yelled upon reaching the anchors at the top of a climb, but which have obviously different meanings and implications.

Also Re uni clubs, the club I've been in, before they stopped climbing activities, while there are some bumblies around, there has always been a core group of experienced climbers who have a lot to share. Now I see the primary function of the club as to hang out with and meet like minded people and eventually formulate our own plans outside the club setting after getting to know each other properly. The main trouble is helping new people to the point where they are experienced enough to safely make their own plans and participate on trips with people they meet without depending on others. Commercial guiding and training could well take that place of wholesale training of club members, it's expensive, but then so will the insurace be for clubs to run their own trips.

There will always be a place for one on one mentoring independent of climbing club activities though I think, as it is the most valuable learning tool, but hard to find someone willing to teach/mentor. whenever I meet someone keen, it's a bit of a dilema considering carefully whether the effort of spending entire weekends teaching will be worthwhile, or if they will just quickly move on to the next exciting thing they come across.

Dave_S

26-May-2017
10:32:10 AM

On 26/05/2017 lukef wrote:
>Have been using "secure" instead of "safe" now with my climbing partners,
>because "safe" often sounds an aweful lot like "take", both things that
>could be expected to be yelled upon reaching the anchors at the top of
>a climb, but which have obviously different meanings and implications.

That only helps if you also stop saying "take", or if your belayer absolutely knows that you will never say "safe", and if they think they hear "safe" will assume that they have misheard and instead take in. I'd suggest it is more important that the belayer always asks for confirmation before taking a climber off belay.

E.g.

"I'm safe!"
"Ok, [climber's name], taking you off belay?"
"Yes, [belayer's name], take me off belay."
"Ok!"
*Belayer only now takes the climber off belay*
"Ok, [climber's name], you are off belay!"

rightarmbad

26-May-2017
11:41:30 AM

>" Here we go again. I think everyone should look down when they get to the 3rd bolt, just to check they're still on belay. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

>Either we're doing the thing where nobody takes their climber off belay until told to do so by the climber, or it's the fuching wild west and you could be off belay without notice at any time.

>Also, why the hell are people rapping off a 20m sport cliff with loweroffs at the top? And do people at K.P. regularly play 'lowering-or-rapping bingo' at night with 2000W, upward facing lights making it impossible to see their belayer? "

Weighting the rope not only tests that you are on belay but tests your complete system and ensures that you haven't done something silly like not tying back in.

Again, a couple of seconds to save your life, with do downside whatsoever.
Only a fool would criticise this.

patto

26-May-2017
12:21:44 PM

On 26/05/2017 Dave_S wrote:
>"I'm safe!"
>"Ok, [climber's name], taking you off belay?"
>"Yes, [belayer's name], take me off belay."
>"Ok!"
>*Belayer only now takes the climber off belay*
>"Ok, [climber's name], you are off belay!"

Pretty much this..... I always use my partners name and I always confirm any call of safe before taking somebody off belay.

Of course sometimes communication becomes impossible. Best to agree on an approach beforehand and err on the side of caution. Don't go off belay until there is no more rope left if you can't confirm a safe call. As a second you just have to trust that you partner is either belaying or you are simul climbing because he ran out of rope!


rodw

26-May-2017
1:33:09 PM

On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:

>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>to get down other than being lowered.

Gravity? but perhaps thats too efficient.


Duang Daunk

26-May-2017
2:48:13 PM

On 26/05/2017 rodw wrote:
>On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>>to get down other than being lowered.
>
>Gravity? but perhaps thats too efficient.

Since you've gone over to the dark side bro, you might as well go and sink some more steel so you can downclimb too. Either that or wait five minutes till someone puts up a squeeze line next to your project so you can use their steel then claim on The Crag another tick for a first descent.

Re lights at KP, was the acco after sunset?

kieranl

26-May-2017
3:10:14 PM

rightarmbad

26-May-2017
7:10:08 PM

On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 26/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>>Weighting the rope not only tests that you are on belay but tests your
>>complete system and ensures that you haven't done something silly like
>>not tying back in.
>
>Bit of a sneaky bait and switch there, buddy. Of course you should double
>check that you've threaded and tied back in correctly. That's something
>which has just been fiddled with.
>
>>Again, a couple of seconds to save your life, with do downside whatsoever.
>>Only a fool would criticise this.
>
>You could go on endlessly down that road. Put a prussic on your belayers
>end as they lower you, protects against either a homicidal belayer or a
>failed anchor (but not both). Climb everything on double ropes with one
>belayer on each, etc.
>
>Again, how is being taken off belay at the anchor of a lower-off sport
>route any different to being taken off belay mid pitch as you're leading?
>You can't protect yourself against that. Sure, look down and check whenever
>you like, it doesn't cost anything. What happens when you can't see or
>hear your belayer?
>
>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>to get down other than being lowered.

Nothing to do with your endless road.
You check you are on belay as this a very critical time.
Simple as that. Any failure at that point is in your own hands and as you are the only one to make the decision to remove your safety, you are the only one who can hurt you.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-May-2017
9:18:15 PM

This one for the ODH 'as listed 90%' out there who may be wondering about descending off multipitch...

Heh, heh, heh.

rightarmbad

27-May-2017
8:17:25 PM

No it is not what I was taught, but just the common sense of adding an extra layer of safety into a system with virtually no overhead.
When I see the traffic lights go green I don't assume it is safe either.
I look both ways and then proceed.

Both instances take a mere handful seconds but add enormously to safety in situations that have repeatedly proven to have been 'accident' prone.

I climb with a lot of overseas visitors and sometimes there are climbing practices differences and language barriers so miscommunication can be more prevalent.
If I climbed every week with the same person then maybe I might become complacent like you and expose myself to unnecessary risk.

But it is only seconds, so I doubt it.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-May-2017
8:56:27 PM

A bit late, but I reckon QUT wouldn't mind having a Kuringai outcome formalised...

Richard Delaney

27-May-2017
9:09:26 PM

But... that would not apply in this case because of the duty of care owed to the student by the activity leader (which is the same whether paid or volunteer).

Paul

28-May-2017
2:20:02 PM

On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 27/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>> just the common sense of adding an
>>extra layer of safety into a system with virtually no overhead.
>
>Which is fine, you can do whatever you like. I once saw a guy at nowra
>who put 2 quickdraws on every bolt (to guard against the reasonably common
>occurrence of unclipping).
>
>Just don't try to normalise taking people off belay at loweroff crags.
>I'll say it again, the way I do stuff is the global norm, it isn't some
>weird thing I invented. Why don't you find one actual good active climber
>to back your idea of going in safe at the top of every sport pitch? Please
>report back when you find someone who's with you on this.

We are talking about a cliff where signs had to be put up telling people to belay off their harness and not the fence, and I witnessed a person belaying of a sling attached to the said fence no more than 2 meters from the said sign.

Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for safe lowering off.

There are 102 messages in this topic.