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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 3 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 64
Author
St Peters Gym accident
technogeekery
3-Feb-2017
9:05:41 AM
TheBelayer, thanks for sharing that and your thoughts on why it happened / prevention - some interesting stuff there.

Not sure about your point 7. Yes, if I think I'm very likely to fall off I'll let my belayer know. But anyone can fall off any time, belayers have to be able to catch the unexpected as well as the expected.

There is plenty of friction with a modern ATC and a 9.6mm rope, even if they are both new & shiny. But its a good reminder to really think about what might have changed with new gear, and how to mitigate those changes.

Re point 8 - once the rope is running fast through the ATC, it is going to be hard to stop, doesn't matter what combination you've got. As you identify earlier, you've got to be on top of things, and brake that rope before it really runs. Some climbers wear belay gloves for that reason (I've never found it necessary, but like you, am not catching big whippers outdoors often).

Thanks for posting,.
patto
3-Feb-2017
9:51:07 AM
On 3/02/2017 kieranl wrote:
>No, you have to watch them all of the time, not just most of the time.
So if they are out of sight due to the topography?

>If you aren't watching then your first cue that they've
>fallen will be the rope running through your hands. That's too late.
Huh? Why would the rope be running through your hands? Stay locked firmly locked off and there is no dramas.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3-Feb-2017
9:59:15 AM
On 3/02/2017 patto wrote:
>On 3/02/2017 kieranl wrote:
>>No, you have to watch them all of the time, not just most of the time.

>So if they are out of sight due to the topography?
>
>>If you aren't watching then your first cue that they've
>>fallen will be the rope running through your hands. That's too late.

>Huh? Why would the rope be running through your hands? Stay locked firmly
>locked off and there is no dramas.

That too would be an issue if leader is out of sight due topography... but we are drifting thread here, as title is Gym and we are referring to outdoor.
;-)


On 3/02/2017 mikllaw wrote:
>Possibly this also? I see a lot of people belaying with their device and
>rope upside down.
>If you belay this way:-
>
>
>If the brake hand is held a bit lower than in this photo, you can have
>the rope briefly running around the biner and not really touching the belay
>device. = Super low friction mode.

That's a scary pic mikl... and what you speak of is a super-basic mistake that should never be made, especially in this modern time where communication / You-tube vids / etc are supposed to be more efficient/prolific.
Ignoring climbing gear instruction sheets have greater consequence than ignoring Ikea instruction sheets!
Heh, heh, heh.

ajfclark
3-Feb-2017
10:10:02 AM
On 3/02/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>That too would be an issue if leader is out of sight due topography... but we are drifting thread here, as title is Gym and we are referring to outdoor. ;-)

There are parts of gyms where the leader can be out of sight too.

> That's a scary pic mikl... and what you speak of is a super-basic mistake that should never be made, especially in this modern time where communication / You-tube vids / etc are supposed to be more efficient/prolific.

I see stuff like that all the time. When you point it out, some people say they prefer it that way as it runs easier or some shit like that.
rightarmbad
3-Feb-2017
10:55:48 AM
>7-This climber taking a lead fall was very much unexpected and out of character. It's the belayers responsibility to be ready to catch all the time of course but their only human and humans are not perfect. If you catch them unprepared it's you that will suffer.
>Corrective action=If you are intending to do something unexpected then tell your belayer before hand. It could be your going to push to failure when you don't usually or keep slack to a minimum where there is a possibility of hitting a ledge or what ever it might be.

This is the big one.
But belayers are only human and humans are not perfect.
So my question is, do you let go of the steering wheel of your car while you are driving?

Holding the rope is the one single most important job of the belayer.
It is really easy, you can do whilst you check out the hottie next door or work out the moves on the next door line, it just isn't hard to do.
Short roping your leader, that is distraction and a little bit of imperfect human, but not holding the rope is not just being a little human, that is a huge difference.

This is the same sort of behavior that has cars running over cyclists or hitting curbs while they are on their phone.
You must take ownership of your responsibility to stop your partner from getting dropped.
There are no excuses.
By falling back onto the 'we are all human and we all make mistakes' mantra, shows that you still do not understand this and still fail to fully accept your responsibility.

I have no doubt that some time in your future, you will make a similar mistake.
It may be less likely now, but until you fully accept the responsibility of being a belayer you are dangerous.

ajfclark
3-Feb-2017
12:42:20 PM
> There are no excuses.

What about when egosan fell above his second piece and it pulled. What should I have done then?

MonkeyBoy
3-Feb-2017
12:56:13 PM
I was the leader in an incident very similar to this a few years back. Fell just before the last draw at in indoor Gym in the Uk ( about 14m high ) and stopped about 1m short of hitting the deck. Essentially I fell, as is described in earlier posts the rope began to run through the belay device until the belayer managed to get it under control, at which point they were picked up (they were considerably lighter than me) and slammed into the wall. Luckily they were un hurt and managed to hold onto the rope despite rope burned hands and so could then let out slack in a controlled manner so we both lowered to the ground.

I have no doubt it was the cumulative consequence of a few factors.

1. Belayer not paying attention - Main one - The belayer ( who I know is not on this forum ) had been away for some time, was an experienced climber but was definitely chatting to other locals and talking about their trip !

2. New rope - it was a brand new rope that was straight out of the plastic wrap and had been used on only 2 previous led climbs

3. We didn't climb together often,though I had known the belayer for some time and we have been climbing at the same time we didn't usually climb with each other and I cant help but think this also contributed somehow.

All up and in this incident the belayer came off worse, they were a little bruised and totally despondent that they had early dropped me, and I was a little shook up but OK.

I think all of the lessons and factors pointed out by the belayer in the posts above are bang on and the more people are aware of the potential "failure" points the better and personally am now a more attentive belayer. I also do like to keep an eye on and talk to my belayer if its a new partner.

As a side point i think communication coming from the leader can really help the belayer stay focused, and vice versa. Those little "watch me here" from the leader or "how you doing" coming from the belayer just keep the link between the two people.
kieranl
3-Feb-2017
1:12:28 PM
On 3/02/2017 ajfclark wrote:
>> There are no excuses.
>
>What about when egosan fell above his second piece and it pulled. What
>should I have done then?

Step out of the way :)

People getting pedantic about whether you can see the belayer or not are missing the point - it's about paying attention. You watch the leader to see what they're doing - if they're out of sight then watch the rope, it will give you some clue as to what is going on. Pay attention, pay attention, pay attention. Feel free to tell someone who tries to talk to you that you can't talk just now.

I love the concept of warning someone when you're about to do something unexpected - shades of known unknowns.
widewetandslippery
3-Feb-2017
2:09:37 PM
how bloody hard is it to belay? you watch the climber or feel the movement and when they become religious hold the rope tight.
Jayford4321
3-Feb-2017
2:51:22 PM
On 3/02/2017 widewetandslippery wrote:
>how bloody hard is it to belay? you watch the climber or feel the movement
>and when they become religious hold the rope tight.

Therz no hope 4U while leading then?

I like my belayerz 2B competent, an I make sure they hav got tha skillz b4 I get on serious ground.
One Day Hero
3-Feb-2017
10:02:24 PM
On 3/02/2017 ajfclark wrote:

>What about when egosan fell above his second piece and it pulled. What
>should I have done then?

You should have administered basic first aid, then made a really lowball offer on his rack........it's not like he needed it anymore.

Andrew_M
3-Feb-2017
10:29:15 PM
Since everyone is telling their gym belay horror stories I'll chime in another one, with some variations and obligatory flakey interpretations/lessons.

Few years ago at St Peters, missed the top clip at about 14m and took a ground fall but somehow managed to come off completely unscathed (so I wouldn't show up in Garbie's incident records).

It was complete belayer error. My regular partners had piked so I'd ended up climbing with mate of a mate who, as it turned out, was a complete f---nuckle. He was apparently barely paying attention because he was too busy checking out and posing for some girls on the next climb. Thing is that, the way I see it, I was as much responsible for what happened as he was since the warning signs were there. He talked himself up massively but he wobbled up his first lead backclipping half the draws on the way. Yet I still chose to keep climbing with him. Why? I dunno - maybe at least partly it was because I didn't want to feel like a prick for being effectively critical of him by switching to top roping.

It took me a long time to get anything like my old lead head back after the fall, but in some ways it's kind of good it happened because I did get to walk away having learned some lessons. I reckon it's made me a better belayer because I'm now paranoid about paying attention to the leader and to my belay technique. I'm now also massively paranoid about who belays me and how. I reckon some folks I climb with think I'm a bit weird about it but now I now don't care if they think it's an odd quirk or I'm a prick or whatever. Ultimately when you're climbing it's your life and the decision to climb with someone or not is your call - if you don't have faith in your belayer then just walk away.
White Trash
5-Feb-2017
3:52:16 PM
On 3/02/2017 Andrew_M wrote:
>Ultimately when you're climbing it's your life and the decision to climb with someone or not is your call - if you don't have faith in your belayer then just walk away.

Truoble is that by the time you find out they are no good, its often to late, especially on multipitch stuff.

You went to the Buffalo aid festy thing yes? What do you do when you go climbing with new people who you dont know their belay ability?

Andrew_M
5-Feb-2017
7:08:22 PM
Ah White Trash, I didn't say I'm necessarily good at picking belayers - just that I'm paranoid. Back in the day I would have jumped on a rope at any time with anybody but now I do a bit of homework and am not above a bit of Google stalking or making some discreet inquiries.

rodw
5-Feb-2017
8:13:49 PM
On 5/02/2017 White Trash wrote:
>On 3/02/2017 Andrew_M wrote:
>>? What do you do when you go
>climbing with new people who you dont know their belay ability?
Get them to belay a someone else so i can watch first :)..I never let anyone belay me that i haven't seen do it..if they ask id just say no mate don't trust ya yet..my life vs there feelings..easy equation i reckon.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5-Feb-2017
10:44:15 PM
On 5/02/2017 Andrew_M wrote:
>Back in the day I would have jumped on a rope at any time with anybody but now I do a bit of homework and am not above a bit of Google stalking or making some discreet inquiries.

Blerrie heck we got stalked for that event?
♥ it!
Heh, heh, heh.

Andrew_M
6-Feb-2017
10:57:54 AM
On 5/02/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Blerrie heck we got stalked for that event?

Yes M9, you have a stalker...hopefully it won't come to a restraining order though
GlebeChris
10-Feb-2017
2:14:17 PM
OK... so it's been a while. 3 months in spinal ward will do that for you.

Some quick answers to the questions below

1. What diameter rope was used? 9.4mm. Thinner than often used in gyms but well within the scope of the belay device, same as I have used outdoors and I preferred a lighter rope because I cycled to and from the gym. It was fairly new - probably used for 20-30 lead climbs in the gym and outdoors for a couple of climbs so it was still a bit slick.
2. The stated belay device was 'ATC' - The device was a Petzl Reverso 2 - comes with v cleats and we always set up to use the v-cleats
3. Was the belay person anchored to the floor or standing free? Free standing
4. Weight of climber? About 84kg
5. Weight of belay person? About 74Kg
6. Was all gear BYO - if no, which items were supplied by the gym? All BYO
7. Had the climber and belay person been an existing team - in that...had they climbed together many times previously and developed a strong climbing partnership? Or, were they a relatively new climbing partnership? We had climbed together 2-3 times a week for over a year
8. Did they review and discuss procedures before embarking on the climb at the gym? We were excessively meticulous about our preparation. Checked everything, every climb.
9. Was there anything that could have distracted the belay person momentarily? (ignoring normal and routine activities that would have been in progress - e.g. other climbers going about their activities in a routine way). Possibly
10. Did the belay person have any existing injuries or strains or any medical issues? (Note: Difficult to disclose medical issues - which may be personal and private). No
GlebeChris
10-Feb-2017
2:14:33 PM
I was reaching to clip the carabiner at the roof when I fumbled the clip and lost my footing. My belayer was giving out rope, but I would have expected him to have completed this manoeuvre by the time I fell and should have been back locked off. My belief is that my partner did not keep sufficient tension between the front and back hand to keep the rope in the cleats and to keep the rope already somewhat locked off. When I fell, because I had rope out, I would have fallen 3 meters or so before tensioning the rope. By that point I would have built up towards 30km/h and the rope takes more stopping. I think the rope was running over the side of the device and just pulled free of his hand.

(On a technical point, I have always liked to belay from further away from the wall once the climber is above about the 4th clip - that way I can normally give rope by walking in and never take the rope out of the locked off position. I hear people on these forums criticizing this technique but if my partner had adopted this method I am convinced I would not have fallen.)

I knew when I had fallen more than 3m and not been slowed. I was well aware by about 6m that I was going to deck. I landed on my left leg first and when that broke I went down onto my backside. The shock wave went up my spine causing each vertebra to collide with the one above until it found the weakest link and my T12 vertebra disintegrated. My left leg was shattered through the articulating surface of the ankle joint - just about the worst way I could have broken it.

My belay partner was a doctor and one of the staff at the gym was a newly qualified nurse which helped. My belayer was in a bit of shock but managed to call my wife. The nurse/staff member was fantastic. I knew I had done some damage so deliberately didn't move. The ambos arrived and gave me Ketamine (I've had a bad experience on morphine previously so the party drug Special-K was apparently the way to go though they refused to drop me off at home nightclub) Once on Ketamine I disappeared into 24 hours of geometric mazes whilst being shipped to RPA, churned through every scanner available and then transferred to POWH. About 8 hours of surgery later, my back sports bolts like a meccano set and my leg is much the same. Transferred to the spinal ward I was effectively bed bound for about 3 weeks. Then in a wheelchair and a forearm walking frame. I progressed as fast as I was allowed - getting off painkillers early and then transferring to crutches. I finally shed the crutches just around Christmas and am now walking around like a real boy (albeit slowly and awkwardly).

As to my prognosis. When I arrived at the spinal ward in September they told me I would be there until March but I got out at the start of December (early parole for good behaviour). I have spinal damage that means the muscles in my feet, some of the muscles in my calves, legs and glutes are gone. Some organs are challenged. The doctors are hopefully that I will get most of this back - but it could take up to two years and might not come back at all. I did recently get my big toe back. This was weird. I hadn't been able to move my big toe independently of my other toes for over 4 months when suddenly, one day I took my sock off and curled my toes and my big toe did something different. A bit of practice and I was back to being able to use it. This is a positive result - particularly because the nerves that control the big toe emanate from the S2 vertebra which is right down by the sacrum. I am told that your spine will tend to heal from the top down - if true then this is a really good sign.

My left leg is still quite compromised but physio is helping. I can walk, but I stumble a bit because of the loss of calf muscles and the collapse of my feet due to the loss of muscle power in my feet. Even if everything comes back I have to be careful the rest of my life. Any accident that could cause minor back trauma to anyone else could create shearing forces at the end of the rods in my back and take out my back completely - putting me back in to a wheelchair permanently. So, no more skiing, mountain biking, cycling in traffic, lead climbing or bouldering. I do intend to top rope again (with the right belay partner).

I'm generally in good spirits about it. As I am heard to say, it is all about your frame of reference. If I compare myself to the day before the accident, then life is pretty awful. If I compare myself to the day after the accident then things are awesome - I am home and I can walk, ride my bike, go for a swim, take my kids to their sports and go on holiday. I made it in to the surf at Christmas (but no more surfing allowed) and had a week in Bali with the kids before they went back to school. I consciously choose the positive view of my life.
(removed)
10-Feb-2017
5:34:11 PM
Thanks for the detail - and best of luck with your recovery. Pretty full on, indeed.

Just on this point ...

On 10/02/2017 GlebeChris wrote:
>(On a technical point, I have always liked to belay from further away
>from the wall once the climber is above about the 4th clip - that way I
>can normally give rope by walking in and never take the rope out of the
>locked off position. I hear people on these forums criticizing this technique
>but if my partner had adopted this method I am convinced I would not have
>fallen.)

I agree, and have had some gym staff telling me off for doing just this. I don't understand the criticisms - can someone help me out here ?

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