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Point Perp Accidents 23/24 Feb 2014


nmonteith

24-Feb-2014
7:16:16 PM

Yes, I would have pulled it as I wasn't sure that the Ambos actually knew where we were, and we were expecting a helicopter to spot us. My phone was also dropping in and out so I didn't have reliable communication if they tried to ring me.

martym

25-Feb-2014
12:31:42 AM

On 24/02/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>Yes, I would have pulled it as I wasn't sure that the Ambos actually knew
>where we were, and we were expecting a helicopter to spot us. My phone
>was also dropping in and out so I didn't have reliable communication if
>they tried to ring me.

I'll bet you wish you'd remembered...
I've always wanted to know what happens when you "push the red button (pull the chord)" = do they send banana man? roger ramjet? a set of fighter jets??
PLBs are designed mainly for boats; so being near a naval base you'd have had quite a show!

ps. bloody good job - I hope the bloke knows how lucky he was having nmonteith rap down to keep him company!


freesolo

26-Feb-2014
8:22:30 AM

was trying to report a bush fire just outside a national park, and the person on the phone simply could NOT understand there weren't any bloody road signs for her to type into her computer. gave up and hung up.

glad to hear someone was around to help the injured party to safety.

i have been overconfident on routes and failed to put gear in for the first 5 meters or so, and fortunately, never took a bad ground fall. if nothing else, one solid piece early may protect your belayer as you go hurtling by.

JohnK

26-Feb-2014
10:35:19 AM

My understanding was that when you are dispatched to emergency services via triple 000 they can pinpoint your GPS location using the signal from your mobile phone.

I remember doing a solo hike and standing on the summit of Mount Jagungal when I could see fire in the distance which ended up being a controlled burn. Called 000, and obviously got the old "what is the nearest town?" question several times. I was like "I am standing on the second highest peak at Kosci national park!!". The operator finally then simply got my precise location by tracking my mobile phone, calling the local CFA and confirming that it was just a controlled burn in the Kosci national park.

I still think that some of the operators are not use to dealing with people from remote locations in the great outdoors. Must be a very minor % of their calls.

Well done by the way Neil - hope those hurt recover ok.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Feb-2014
11:39:12 AM

Goodonya nm&co for being prepared to assist fellow climbers in their moment of need.

On 26/02/2014 freesolo wrote:
>i have been overconfident on routes and failed to put gear in for the
>first 5 meters or so, and fortunately, never took a bad ground fall. if
>nothing else, one solid piece early may protect your belayer as you go
>hurtling by.

+1
Putting in an early Jesus-piece also has the significant benefit, particularly if placed as a multi-directional piece, of preventing any higher placed protection dislodging when rope tension comes into play during a possible fall.
The Jesus-piece can also prevent FF2 situations in some circumstances.

gnarly_rider

26-Feb-2014
12:47:45 PM

On 26/02/2014 JohnK wrote:
>My understanding was that when you are dispatched to emergency services
>via triple 000 they can pinpoint your GPS location using the signal from
>your mobile phone.

Just to correct this statement, 000 cannot necessarily pinpoint your mobile GPS location, hence the creation of the Emegency+ app. From the ESTA 000 Victorian service provider website http://www.esta.vic.gov.au/000+Process/000+Callers:+Your+Role

"Calling from a mobile

When a 000 call is made from a mobile phone, the actual address or GPS location of the caller is not provided to ESTA. The call-taker must determine the location of the emergency from the caller."

I've been trying to dig up a relevant news article I saw some time ago, whereby there is still no obligation by Australian network carriers to provide this information to emergency services (unlike say in the US)


wombly

26-Feb-2014
2:05:51 PM

Good to see they've made progress on the coroner's recommendations then...

http://www.smh.com.au/national/triple0-review-urged-by-coroner-as-iredale-inquest-ends-20090507-aw1a.html

Wollemi

26-Feb-2014
2:34:07 PM

On 26/02/2014 JohnK wrote:
>Called 000, and obviously got the old "what is the nearest town?" question several times. I was like "I am standing on the second highest peak at Kosci national park!!". The operator finally then simply got my
precise location by tracking my mobile phone, calling the local CFA and confirming that it was just a controlled burn in the Kosci national park.
>
>
The volunteer-based fire fighting agency in NSW has been known as RFS (Rural Fire Service) since 1997. They have never been known as CFA.
The Bush Fire Information Line is 1800 NSW RFS or 1800 679 737. Still ring 000 to report an emergency.

CFA; http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/ - Victorian Bushfire Information Line is 1800 240 667. Please ring 000 to report an emergency.

~~~~

With your absolute passion for mountains, JohnK, I am surprised that you state Jagungal to be the 2nd highest peak. 2nd is Mt Townsend. Some web pages show Jagungal to be 20th, one states it is our 14th highest peak.

You may have been better to say the 000 operator, 'Mt Jagungal, a prominent mountain West of Lake Eucumbene' or 'Mt Jagungal is many kilometres south-west of Kiandra locality, which is on the Snowy Mountains Highway'. More about clarity than being pedantic.

~~~~

I have found when speaking to the naive, to quickly revert to the full name. People I work with don't have a clue when I speak of Kosi or Mt Vic - yet everyone I climb with knows immediately - and work colleagues all brighten up when I say Mt Kosciuszko and Mt Victoria.

Not dissimilarly, I didn't have a clue what locals were talking about when constantly referring to TI and POW - ['tee-eye' and 'Pow!'] although I was in Torres Strait at the time - later to visit Thursday Island and look across to the larger Prince of Wales Island. Relevance to this thread remains - don't be ambiguous or use jargon when wanting, or giving, assistance from/to those of a different background to yourself.

~~~~

>I still think that some of the operators are not use to dealing with people from remote locations in the great outdoors. Must be a very minor % of their calls.
>
>
I agree with you, though this report by the NSW Coroner ought to have gone some way to remedy that since 2009 (or late 2006 when this tragedy occurred) . Point 104 by the magistrate ought to have improved things;
http://outdoorcouncil.asn.au/doc/Iredalefindings.pdf
Pertains to the same tragic incident that Wombly refers to above.

gnarly_rider

26-Feb-2014
2:45:24 PM

Interestingly, there was supposed to be regulations addressing mobile carriers provision of users locations to emergency services back in 2011:

"New regulations will see mobile carriers providing precise location information to emergency services to help locate people who can't identify where they are"
....
"The function will start on 20 April 2011"

http://www.zdnet.com/carriers-provide-mobile-locations-to-000-1339308839/

But the responsible body (ACMA) on their site still says as of 16 October 2013:

"Australia’s mobile networks cannot automatically transmit GPS data from a handset to an emergency service operator."

http://www.acma.gov.au/theACMA/calling-the-emergency-call-service-from-a-mobile-phone--faqs

Most recently

"There are plans for a limited trial of a location-based technology tentatively set for mid-2014."

http://www.bigrigs.com.au/news/emergency-on-the-road-a-mobile-call-cant-be-traced/2102373/


nmonteith

26-Feb-2014
3:00:42 PM

I just went in and saw the poor guy. Ankle is pretty messed up, two lots of surgery to pin it together so far but a reasonably positive prognosis for recovery.

One extra lesson to gain from this event.

• Have insurance to cover climbing. This bloke doesn't have it, and is being slugged close to $2k for the hospital bed per day and who knows what for the surgery, drugs and air ambulance. Our public health care may be free for Aus citizens, but doesn't apply to aliens (as the US government likes to call non-citizens).


rodw

26-Feb-2014
4:17:06 PM

Being a non Australian once e leaves, as long as he doesn't come back he wont have to pay...unfortunately doesn't work the same way in the US, they will stop ya leaving.


nmonteith

26-Feb-2014
4:24:57 PM

They were already hassling him for money upfront when I was there visiting him.

patto

26-Feb-2014
4:44:26 PM

On 26/02/2014 gnarly_rider wrote:
>"Australia’s mobile networks cannot automatically transmit GPS data from
>a handset to an emergency service operator."

I'd bloody hope not! It is a breach of privacy and not something I want my phone doing! Even if I'm talking to an emergency service operator.

GPS location is a phone based data and your own personal data private from your carrier. It is entirely different from carrier signal location. Which there is no expectation that it is private from your carrier.


rodw

26-Feb-2014
5:41:54 PM

On 26/02/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>They were already hassling him for money upfront when I was there visiting
>him.

Hospital admins are bit more proactive these days, but they cant kick him out, ie patient care and all that ..overseas travelers do cost our health system a bit..in the states they probably wouldn't have even operated on him without seeing the cash.


ajfclark

26-Feb-2014
8:36:34 PM

On 26/02/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>air ambulance

One thing worth checking if you're relying on private health cover for ambulance cover is to check their limits. Quite a few providers have very low ($500 - $1000) limits relative to the cost of air ambulance ($2000+) and rural ambulances. Even Medibank Private, who will cover the cost, actually require notification and authorisation prior to the cost being incurred. I asked them "Does this mean if I'm out cold and someone else calls an air ambulance for me you might refuse to pay?" and was told "You must call ahead to authorise".

I have Ambulance Victoria membership now...


ambyeok

27-Feb-2014
1:33:23 PM

On 26/02/2014 patto wrote:
>GPS location is a phone based data and your own personal data private
>from your carrier. It is entirely different from carrier signal location.
> Which there is no expectation that it is private from your carrier.

I don't get it, isn't it just that one carrier is via mobile towers and the other via satellites? You get GPS on your phone through grace of the satellite operators, you could say it is their data and your choosing to subscribe.


ajfclark

27-Feb-2014
3:04:26 PM

Mobile towers know who is on them, GPS sattelites don't.

In theory you could ask your provider to tell you all the base stations a given phone has appeared on. You cannot do the same with GPS.


dimpet

28-Feb-2014
8:02:36 AM

- The GPS device (phone) just receives information it does not send anything. Multiple satellites are required to get an accurate location. So the device can work out where it is, but no one else will know unless the device is set up to specifically sends that information somewhere.

- The same idea can be used with Mobile base stations, the phone actually connects to all the base stations in range and it has a measure of approximately how far they are away based on signal strength. This can be used to determine approximately where the phone is. The phone must identify itself to each of the base stations. In this way the mobile operator has this information.

There are 38 messages in this topic.