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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 59
Author
Fixed draw cuts rope ~> fatality
PDRM
19/10/2012
8:28:12 AM
People may have already seen this?

http://www.rockandice.com/news/2301-fatal-accident-fixed-draw-cuts-rope

P

ajfclark
19/10/2012
9:37:07 AM
Someone died. 47 people like this.

*shakes head*

There are other ways to share a story folks.

shortman
19/10/2012
9:50:21 AM
Shakin with ya. 49 now.
kieranl
19/10/2012
10:39:38 AM
It's pretty tragic, the death that is, (the "like" stuff is simply absurd). Fixed draws always sucked on a number of levels, that they're dangerous to boot is just the final mark against them.
What's the expression : "Give me convenience or give me death"? Well you can have both.

SteveC
19/10/2012
11:49:42 AM
I think (hope) the FB "like" is synonymous with "draw attention to", in that if you click on the thumb, it gets flagged on your wall and people who stalk you can then see the link that you've drawn attention to and can also read it. I've been saying for years that, along with the thumbs up sign, they need a thumbs down, a sad face, a laughing face, an angry face an indifferent face a politically interested face etc. to cover all possible reactions that I could have to any link.

As for the fixed draws, I first came across this on roof routes in grotty spanish limestone caves. Fair enough, bolts are in hard to reach places, there are long slings, the routes are horizontal for 20 metres and there is virtually no UV reaching most of them. And only hard climbers are going up there so they can probably tell whether a sling is old and brittle.

In the States, it seemed much more like convenience for the masses on popular routes and warm ups as well as on the hard roof routes. I was mostly worried about UV damage, so I keenly fondled every fixed draw I ever clipped. Only through doing that did I find some razor sharp biners on an 11.something warm up route in Maple canyon! I mean razor sharp like you would lose a finger if you were pumped and grabbed this thing! This route didn't need fixed draws as it was just a steep wall route next to the pipedream cave- not hard to clean. But it was obviously popular, I climbed it several times either as a warm up or because I couldn't send anything in the cave, so I'd argue that the popularity of a route should disqualify it from having fixed draws! Unless the slings are chains and the biners have a tungsten carbide coating.
Reserve this sort of thing for steep routes where 20 metres of back jumping is the only other option. And make it the exception not the rule.

gUANGZHOU
19/10/2012
1:06:50 PM
I agree on the like button for sharing, but it does look strange. Think I will just cut the link instead.

Fixed draws. Two issues for me.

Worn out slings with UV damage can and will cause the slings to break. Even under a cave, there is still a fair amount of UV to cause this damage. While not always the case, damage sling can be fairly easy to spot. Discoloration and brittleness for example.

The other issue, and harder to deal with in my opinion, is carabiners. Carbiners exposed to the weather also become weak over time and can break. Broken carabiners are not good.

On the carabiner front, the carabiners with heavy use could also have grooves worn into them creating sharp angles where the rope runs. More or less like sharpening a knife. These sharp carabiners would be hard to identify and can easily cut a rope in a fall.

Fixed draws, I'm surprised we don't see more accidents with them. Glad we don't but surprised.


Doug
19/10/2012
5:02:21 PM
There's a sector in Cheakamus Canyon in the Sea to Sky Corridor where all the routes have been retrofitted with fixed runners. I'm loath to call them quickdraws because they consist of big solid biners (looked like they might even be steel, but if anyone else has been to this area they might correct me) joined by what looks like steel cable. (I was climbing easier routes either side of this sector.) I'm wondering if this is the start of a new trend for high end sport climbing, especially on really steep rock that is not affected much by rain.

E. Wells
19/10/2012
5:52:45 PM
I actually do think it depends on the biner, not that I support permadraws, but if theyre big round(not I-beamish) steelies they will be allright for a while. I have some great razor edge draws attached to buckets, jumar etc. not good for climbing. Its a shame someone was complacent about random gear hanging on a wall.
dawyndham
22/10/2012
9:42:26 AM
On 19/10/2012 Doug wrote:
>There's a sector in Cheakamus Canyon in the Sea to Sky Corridor where all
>the routes have been retrofitted with fixed runners. I'm loath to call
>them quickdraws because they consist of big solid biners (looked like they
>might even be steel, but if anyone else has been to this area they might
>correct me) joined by what looks like steel cable. (I was climbing easier
>routes either side of this sector.) I'm wondering if this is the start
>of a new trend for high end sport climbing, especially on really steep
>rock that is not affected much by rain.

What you saw would be these:
http://www.climbtechgear.com/cable-draw-16kn-or-22kn-blue-or-gray/

I saw them around Chek last year and thought it was good that someone has at least designed gear appropriate for the use.
hotgemini
22/10/2012
10:52:33 AM
Except it is still mild-steel. I've been saying this over and over again whenever this product comes up, but what needs to happen is climbtech (makers of the aforementioned permadraw) need to get into bed with climbing technology (italian climbing gear manufacturer) who make this SS pin-captive, wire-gate carabiner.

Add stainless wire and a stainless maillon and bob is your aunty.

http://www.climbinganchors.com.au/products/Climbing-Technology-Captive-Bar-Stainless-Steel-Wire-Gate.html

shortman
22/10/2012
11:04:09 AM
On 22/10/2012 hotgemini wrote:
>Except it is still mild-steel. I've been saying this over and over again
>whenever this product comes up, but what needs to happen is climbtech (makers
>of the aforementioned permadraw) need to get into bed with climbing technology
>(italian climbing gear manufacturer) who make this SS pin-captive, wire-gate
>carabiner.
>
>Add stainless wire and a stainless maillon and bob is your aunty.
>
>http://www.climbinganchors.com.au/products/Climbing-Technology-Captive-Bar-Stainless-Stee
>-Wire-Gate.html

You can't add a stainless wire because it can't bend. Mild steel can still bend, which is why they use it.

Macciza
22/10/2012
12:42:30 PM
Of course you can bend stainless steel wire rope . . .
Done it many times for gear - rigging etc
Look at at balcony with SS wire . ..

shortman
22/10/2012
12:54:43 PM
Your right, but stainless wire is not ideal for bending, and has no give at all.

I'm talking about 12mm+ stainless wire and don't have too much of an idea about thinner wires. However, my understanding would leave me to believe that the swaged end would travel on far to greater a curve than mild steel and that this loop would not really like getting pressed firmly into a biner which would, (upon weight being taken), further call it to turn itself on an angle greater than was intended. And with stainless it would be el' snappola, as opposed to maybe breaking a few strands.

Stainless is fine with wide long arcs at the end and no movement. It does not like bending I should have said, as opposed to it can't bend.

EDIT!

Macciza
22/10/2012
3:10:44 PM
12mm! Yep that will be hard to bend . . .even with 7 * 19 construction . . .

Main factor is construction - 1 * 19 = stiffest 7*19 = most flexible . . .

12 mm gives over 7000 kg breaking strain on single strand - overkill. . .
4 or 5 mm would be more than enough - 4mm doubled , 5 mm single.

Anyway perma-draws are stupid spurt convenience that have no place in Australia!
If you can't put draws on a climb, go back to the perm-a-gym . . .

shortman
22/10/2012
3:22:14 PM
On 22/10/2012 Macciza wrote:

>
>12 mm gives over 7000 kg breaking strain on single strand - overkill.

Depends on the application.

>Anyway perma-draws are stupid spurt convenience that have no place in
>Australia!
>If you can't put draws on a climb, go back to the perm-a-gym . . .

Gold.

rodw
22/10/2012
3:28:18 PM
I'm with macca on this one..perma draws is a step to far IMHO.
alpinejoy
22/10/2012
5:33:19 PM
Permadraws are pretty rare in switzerland. I've only ever seen them on routes above 7b on unpopular or obscure crags, where they are clearly some locals long term project who's left up an old set of draws longterm. Given that they are so rare and there was still a fatality says allot about their safety. Actually when it happend I assumed it was a biner at the lower off, which are often shoddy worn aluminium biners in Switzerland.

I have never seen purpose built steel permadraws in switzerland, so I don't think they can be blamed in this case.


Macciza
22/10/2012
6:12:41 PM
On 22/10/2012 shortman wrote
>
>Depends on the application.
>

Well a a QuickDraw - it is overkill . . .
But as something to pull ring bolts out with it would work fine , so long as the biners did not break . . .

shortman
22/10/2012
6:24:31 PM
Before you corrected me about my statement that stainless wire would not bend - all I was thinkin about was the do's and don'ts with tightwires, and why mild steel is used.

For a quickdraw - yes - it is a given that both 12mm and 7000kgs is overkill.

Doug
23/10/2012
5:43:20 PM
On 22/10/2012 Macciza wrote:

>Anyway perma-draws are stupid spurt convenience that have no place in
>Australia!

>If you can't put draws on a climb, go back to the perm-a-gym . . .
Generally I'd agree. But in some contexts I can see where perma-draws make sense. Where I came across them in Chek is a 10 - 15 minute drive and couple minutes walk for the locals. And it looks like a lot of the locals go up after work to work routes. It was a confined sector that looks like it has effectively become an outdoor gym for high end sport climbers, especially locals. Maybe there is some little niche of rock in Australia where that might happen some day, but it's not what you'd want to see generally.

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 59
There are 59 messages in this topic.

 

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