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TR: Alive in a Bitter Sea (Katoomba Cliffs)

warwickb

8-Dec-2016
5:22:39 PM

Hi Paul,

Ha! So it was Mr Gray who provided the photo. I'd better consult him for a bit of brand management.

For what it's worth, I have no problem with your approach to the climb. Also, replacing the bolts like-for-like leaves the way open for anyone who wishes to walk in and climb it from the ground up with no pre-inspection, which would offer a rare experience.

Regarding Michael's post, if any one wants to contact me feel free. My mobile is 0418672740, email: warwick@warwickbaird.com, or you can contact me via my web site: www.warwickbaird.com.

The last few years my focus in the Blueys has mostly been making art not climbing. Those who are interested may see my art on my web site, including a recently finished series of drawings of the Grose Valley called Plains of the earth.

Keep up the great climbing and posting, and good luck adjusting to the working world after such a wonderful 2 year adventure.

Regards,

Warwick


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Dec-2016
6:37:33 PM

On 8/12/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>Ooh, this could be Stugang's chance to unload some baggage he's been carrying around.
>
>I wonder if Stu has also been focussing on making art?........because
>every time we arrange to go climbing he f*%king no-shows!

He's a professional at it, & you're not alone, as I'm still waiting to do a classic new route at Buffalo with him from two years back that I've done all the groundwork for!
If you want an adventure maybe we should team up & cut out the middleman!
Heh, heh, heh.


Vwills

8-Dec-2016
8:03:07 PM

I have on good authority that mr Gray was wearing red and white striped tights on the FA, and thus looked like a candy cane. I would go with the blue ones Paul......

simey

8-Dec-2016
8:47:23 PM

On 7/12/2016 Macciza wrote:
>Better then it being low-jacked into some 'bland consumer classic clip-up'...
>And like most of Warwicks route it was probably inspected/rehearsed far
>less then most people imagine...

I doubt any route going up that wall is going to be a bland experience. And the fact that Warwick might not have inspected or rehearsed the route much doesn't remove the fact that he did inspect it from a rap rope. That alone is a huge advantage over anyone going ground-up (which is normally what you do when you go climbing).

>Any faffing/inspection/rehearsal is as much a reflection on the climber
>as it is the climb. Perhaps you would like to set us all straight by going
>ground up on it yourself?? I just reckon that if you complain about all
>that stuff but are unwilling to lead it in your preferred fashion then
>it detracts from your argument. And does it really matter how many people
>have climbed it??

The wall is really inspiring, but the route in its current fashion has never interested me. Your argument makes no sense that I should lead it ground-up. It sounds like a shithouse ground-up lead and that is my whole argument.

The fact that Warwick was lucky enough to live in era when he could rap an awesome wall directly below Katoomba and put up a mega route at a relatively modest grade of 25 means that to have created an unappealing route is a crime! The lack of attention it has received is testament to that. And it is not as though his lead was all that amazing. He wasn't onsighting into the unknown. It is a rap inspected and rehearsed, poorly equipped, run-out grade 25. There are no shortage of those routes from the 80s!

If I wanted to play the same game I could have got away with placing only three or four bolts on the second pitch of the Totem Pole. I had it all sussed on rap. I placed ten bolts because I was thinking more about the people climbing it after me. I wasn't interested in creating my own little ego trip. As it stands the climbing is great, the position is great, the route is onsightable and it still retains plenty of excitement. Having a few more bolts doesn't automatically turn a climb into a 'bland consumer classic clip-up'.

Warwick hasn't achieved one thing or another. He ultimately had to rap it and he ultimately had to place bolts. It is just a mess of a route up an awesome wall. The fact that a climber of Paul's calibre had to do that much fcuking around before he was even prepared to lead it is a joke.


E. Wells

8-Dec-2016
11:00:16 PM

Your fan mail is full Simey.


pmonks

9-Dec-2016
4:02:38 AM

On 8/12/2016 simey wrote:
>Warwick hasn't achieved one thing or another. He ultimately had to rap
>it and he ultimately had to place bolts. It is just a mess of a route up
>an awesome wall.

And the fact that it's grade 25 whereas I can only climb grade 14 is also a massive crime!! Please simey and/or One Day Dlckhead - come fix the route ASAP by ring bolting it every 3 feet, and chipping huge jugs all the way up it!!! It's a moral imperative!!!!!!111


rodw

9-Dec-2016
7:08:06 AM

On 8/12/2016 Vwills wrote:
>I have on good authority that mr Gray was wearing red and white striped
>tights on the FA, and thus looked like a candy cane. I would go with the
>blue ones Paul......

Hope hes wearing them Sunday?

WarwickB

9-Dec-2016
1:19:34 PM

Hi Simon,

Chill out! Seems like you have some strong views about how climbs ought to be done. Fine. However denigrating climbs done 30 years ago and the person who did the first ascent is not a particularly good look.

Its a bit of an overkill to suggest Alive in a Bitter Sea is a 'mess' of a route, and putting it up 'a crime' done for selfish and egotistical reasons (as I see it all climbing has an element of egoism and selfishness about it, including putting up well bolted routes on the Totem Pole).

My view is that Alive in a Bitter Sea and the other routes on Echo Wall are excellent routes as they are, and that they were done in an acceptable style. They offer a high quality experience to those who value that type of experience. Clearly there are those that do, even if only a few.

Those that don't will go sport climbing or bouldering or soloing or alpine waterfall climbing, or high altitude mountaineering or any of the other forms of climbing that appeal to them. There is plenty of room in the climbing world for wide variety. It makes it more interesting as well.

Any alterations to the climbs on Echo Point wall on the spurious grounds they are purportedly a 'mess', receive infrequent ascents, or are on 'real estate' that was 'hijacked', is not something I generally agree with. If people who have led the routes believe strongly enough that alterations ought to be made, based on legitimate concerns, I'm more than happy to discuss it with them.

Alive in a Bitter Sea doesn't appeal to you. Not a problem. Find something else to climb that does, as I'm sure you will. There are plenty around.

Regards

Warwick

simey

9-Dec-2016
3:53:51 PM

On 9/12/2016 WarwickB wrote:
>Hi Simon,
Hi Warwick,

>Chill out! Seems like you have some strong views about how climbs ought
>to be done. Fine. However denigrating climbs done 30 years ago and the
>person who did the first ascent is not a particularly good look.

Well it is the same view I held in the 80s regarding Alive in a Bitter Sea. I am also happy to speak my mind about things that I feel passionate about, one of which is poorly equipped routes that involved rap-inspection/rehearsal beforehand. And whilst there are plenty of routes in this dubious category, it is only because your route tackles a particularly inspiring wall that I am bothering to write. (And also to discourage others who think this form of 'boldness' is something worth jerking off about).

>Its a bit of an overkill to suggest Alive in a Bitter Sea is a 'mess'
>of a route, and putting it up 'a crime' done for selfish and egotistical
>reasons (as I see it all climbing has an element of egoism and selfishness
>about it, including putting up well bolted routes on the Totem Pole).

Well some routes are more selfish than others. And I honestly believe that when you start rapping down cliffs and/or placing bolts, then you have already tossed aside the natural challenges of that particular cliff and you have bought things down to your level. To then do the even more selfish thing of bolting it in such a way that barely anyone wants to repeat the route in a normal ground-up fashion is particularly dubious.

If you wanted to scare yourself silly when you went climbing then there were plenty of existing routes and challenges that you could have chosen which would have been much more stylish than this flawed rap and bolt job.

>My view is that Alive in a Bitter Sea and the other routes on Echo Wall
>are excellent routes as they are, and that they were done in an acceptable
>style. They offer a high quality experience to those who value that type
>of experience. Clearly there are those that do, even if only a few.

Well routes have a first ascent history and a repeat ascent history, both of which are worth acknowledging. There are plenty of dodgy first ascents that over time have received enough repeat ascents to justify retaining their 'character'. But Alive in a Bitter Sea has received scant attention in three decades. Maybe Paul's ascent will kickstart a surge of interest and the climb will be hailed in its current fashion. I will be intrigued to see either way.

>Those that don't will go sport climbing or bouldering or soloing or alpine
>waterfall climbing, or high altitude mountaineering or any of the other
>forms of climbing that appeal to them. There is plenty of room in the climbing
>world for wide variety. It makes it more interesting as well.

Variety is good... provided that those climbs of the annoying, poorly-equipped, head-point variety don't tackle awesome, multi-pitch walls.

>Any alterations to the climbs on Echo Point wall on the spurious grounds
>they are purportedly a 'mess', receive infrequent ascents, or are on 'real
>estate' that was 'hijacked', is not something I generally agree with. If
>people who have led the routes believe strongly enough that alterations
>ought to be made, based on legitimate concerns, I'm more than happy to
>discuss it with them.

I am glad that you are open to that possibility.

>Alive in a Bitter Sea doesn't appeal to you. Not a problem. Find something
>else to climb that does, as I'm sure you will. There are plenty around.
>
Thanks, maybe I will attempt Julian's run-out routes on Spurt Wall below Taipan (the ones where the dogging bolts were clipped on the first ascent and then removed afterwards!).

>Regards
>Warwick

Regards,
Simon

warwickb

9-Dec-2016
7:30:52 PM

Hi Simon,

Fair enough, each to their own.

Climbing Julian's run out routes on Spurt Wall sounds like a plan. You could try wearing 'candy stick' coloured spandex for that retro feeling!

Cheers,

Warwick

simey

9-Dec-2016
8:01:42 PM

I will place an order for some candy stick spandex with my fashion guru (Mikl). But I doubt I could ever rock the lycra as well as you did in your hey day.

Jayford4321

9-Dec-2016
8:16:16 PM

Simes, if wazza hadda bolted AiaBS 'ground up' in exactly the same bolt placements as he did on rap, would it still B a mess?
Or RU simply objectn 2 cajones bigger than Urs, err boldness?

simey

10-Dec-2016
12:37:28 AM

On 9/12/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>Simes, if wazza hadda bolted AiaBS 'ground up' in exactly the same bolt
>placements as he did on rap, would it still B a mess?
>Or RU simply objectn 2 cajones bigger than Urs, err boldness?

I have no doubt that Warwick had far bigger cojones than I ever did. And I won't deny that his ascent of Alive in a Bitter Sea (despite my criticism) still required every bit of them.

Would I still call the route a mess if it was bolted exactly the same way, but established ground up as opposed to being rap bolted? No I wouldn't. The ballsiness and vision required to have done the route in that fashion would have been exceptional. It would also have set a standard far above what would be required for repeat ascentionists. At the moment any climber who wants to onsight that climb needs to take a greater risk than Warwick did. I just feel that if your aim is to establish bold routes from scratch then you shouldn't be treating yourself to an unfair advantage over the people who might come after you.

simey

10-Dec-2016
12:53:45 AM

On 9/12/2016 One Day Hero wrote:

>If you'd put 16 bolts into the good pitch on the pole, it'd be way more
>popular.......but it'd also be a lame clip-up and every st. peters softc--k
>would be down there getting the tick.

Whenever I have returned to that route, I sometimes wish I had put in 16 bolts.

>Warwick has been painting, that's an achievement. What have you done lately?
>Any painting with Stu? Cause I haven't seen either of you on the rock in
>years now.

Hey, I was down on the Totem Pole only a few weeks ago! Don't ask me why. Needless to say my ascent was pretty lame. As for what I have been doing in the last fortnight... well 100km trail runs, paragliding and footy training. You are welcome to join me next time you visit (or do you want me to lend you my paint set so you can join Stu?).


pmonks

10-Dec-2016
3:51:25 AM

On 9/12/2016 simey wrote:
>Well some routes are more selfish than others. And I honestly believe
>that when you start rapping down cliffs and/or placing bolts, then you
>have already tossed aside the natural challenges of that particular cliff
>and you have bought things down to your level.

That's pretty binary thinking simey. You might like to consider that there's a wider and finer-grained spectrum of climbing experiences, not all of which are necessarily to your taste.

And for the record, I have never been, nor ever will be, capable of tackling something like Alive in a Bitter Sea, despite fantasising about the echo point wall routes after being blown away by that wall as viewed from the 3 Sisters. Despite that, I greatly appreciate that things like this exist for people like Paul to go out and have what will probably be an enduring memorable experience.

simey

10-Dec-2016
9:39:09 AM

On 10/12/2016 pmonks wrote:

>That's pretty binary thinking simey. You might like to consider that
>there's a wider and finer-grained spectrum of climbing experiences, not
>all of which are necessarily to your taste.
>
I am all for the variety of climbing experiences, but I won't deny my dislike for contrived boldness. It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?


Macciza

10-Dec-2016
7:56:42 PM

On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:
>
> It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>
Well, Nobody!, when you get around to climbing them . . . Which often isn't 'easy' ....
How many have you put up? Or which ones have you climbed??

Once something is climbed and gets a grade it is open to people to go ground up and improve FA style. Regardless of whether it was rap inspected, or runout or whatever, they have the benefit of a grade and possibly some other beta (if that's allowable) - the FA simply misses out on the onsight possibility ... sure it's a sacrifice but they take it for the team ...

simey

11-Dec-2016
12:32:14 AM

On 10/12/2016 Macciza wrote:
>On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:
>>
>> It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>>
>Well, Nobody!, when you get around to climbing them . . . Which often
>isn't 'easy' ....
>How many have you put up? Or which ones have you climbed??

I've done enough climbing of all sorts of styles to have some idea of what I am talking about... and a handful of new routes in a variety of styles that more than likely shit all over anything you have established Macca.
>
>.... the FA simply misses out on the onsight
>possibility ... sure it's a sacrifice but they take it for the team ...

What a crock.


wallwombat

11-Dec-2016
2:56:59 AM

This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest, instigated by the two big bitchy repeaters;

ODH and Simey are just like those fat painful food critics on Masterchef or MKR or whatever,

Or those two old muppets sitting up in the top row and complaining about everything.

Nothing to contribute besides sour grapes.


Doug

11-Dec-2016
6:20:26 AM

On 11/12/2016 wallwombat wrote:
>This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat
>of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful
>comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest ...

+1

There are 75 messages in this topic.