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On 6/07/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 2/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>>A previous generation who used pitions and other antiquated methods should
>not set precedent.
>On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>>In my foolishness and naivety I have confused clipping a piton eye with
>>a bolt eye and a piton scar with a rusty stub.
>>I have climbed Ozy, and yes it is "littered". Another climb that has
>>"drilled into submission". Just buy yourself some etriers, and follow
>>bolt ladders, blown piton scars and rust stains to the top.
>It appears to me that your two statements are at odds with each other.
Just two different statements.
>You climbed a line that was already done, (by aid originally)!
> ~> You aided Ozy yes?
>What a novel idea.
I climbed Ozy as my first aid route, not a novel idea. My point exactly, the route difficulty has been lowered so much that a first timer can clip and go.
>Aside from the bolting ethic, I would suggest that vision to climb (by
>whatever means) any given line = a precedent of sorts.
>Guide books would have nothing to report if not for precedent?
If you leave the rock as you found it, climb by whatever style you like.
>Could it be possible in the future that you look back to the nasty old
>clean climbing days of now, that includes modern methods like placing bolts
>(where needed?), and dare I say it, clean-aid, in the same light for 'precedent
>ascents' such as you look back on the nasty old piton days of yore?
I do look back on the nasty old piton days, but I probably won't look back on the "nasty old clean climbing" days as my cams will be antiquated and retired but the rock will there for others to push boldness and hardness and new precedents for guide books.
>As an aside; there are not too many rust stains (I assume you mean from
>bolts), at Buffalo. The far greater crime there is the galvanic leaching
>from the tourist guard-rails that have killed off the natural lichen below
>most lookouts ...
>I do look back on the nasty old piton days, but I probably won't look
>back on the "nasty old clean climbing" days as my cams will be antiquated
>and retired but the rock will there for others to push boldness and hardness
>and new precedents for guide books.
>If you leave the rock as you found it, climb by whatever style you like.
Unfortunately placing natural gear in the rock actually does cause degradation of the surrounding rock. There are many places on popular routes at Arapiles where the rock is worn and degraded from the metal of the chocks/friends rubbing against the rock, or from the removal process. You can spot the placements from a ways below sometimes and it can certainly be of use when onsighting as you can pick where the gear goes. Eventually this process leaves significant permanent damage as well, but as it is by increments and done in the apparent ethical 'purity' of clean climbing it is mostly ignored or people pretend it does not happen. 1000 individually removed grains of sand makes a pretty large mark.
The route that bought this clearly to my attention a number of years ago was 'Dry Land' at Moonarie. Some of the critical wire placements were looking pretty shabby then and some had become unusable. This only occurred from climbers using the placements. Eventually there will be more damaged rock on that climb from 'clean' climbing than if the route was bolted. Cruise around on the organ pipes and you will see what I mean.
Like all concentrated human activity, climbers alters the very environment that we use, intentionally or not. Whether it be immediate (eg bolting, erosion,etc), or mid term (flora and fauna changes, rock wear etc) and even long term. Those impacts need management by us before the nanny state charges in. Deciding on that strategy is difficult, getting consensus is even harder, people respecting that is ....
On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>I climbed Ozy as my first aid route, not a novel idea. My point exactly,
>the route difficulty has been lowered so much that a first timer can clip
It is still a fair test and many don't succeed on their first attempt.
I don't regard it as quite the 'easy clip up' that you are perhaps suggesting; instead I think that it is modern gear that makes it more accessible to first timers who have passion and determination.
'Normal' runners are not unusual in aid, and even more so for approach marches!
I shall have to check Hard Way To The Top again, blut I am pretty sure HB did the harder free climbing pitches in more modern rock shoes.
>Deciding on that strategy is difficult, getting consensus is even harder, people respecting that is ....