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Crag & Route Beta

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~~potential new bouldering~~ area in NW sydney


nmonteith

21-May-2009
12:23:02 PM

I can't imagine there is many (any?) aboriginal art sites in the Sydney metro region which remain undiscovered. The authorities should have a pretty comprehensive list at their disposal. There's people whos job it is to discover, record and manage these areas.


foreverabumbly

21-May-2009
12:32:21 PM

On 21/05/2009 rodw wrote:

>Last time I checked I wasn't born when the provervial "we" did all those
>things, its certainly not my job to feel gulity about them.
>
just to add another log to the fire-

why do we get to keep the good stuff our forfathers did, but leave out the bad?
I live in a house that is older than me - so I should move out because I wasnt around when it was built. I cant travel on any of the roads, climb at araps. utilize the healthcare system, attend university. Should I stop going to the anzac dawn service because I wasnt around during the wars? I wasnt there - its not my job to remember the fallen.

who are we to wash our hands of the past generations mistakes, when we are still dipping them in the cookie jars of their achievements.

If we still parade the accolades of past success; If you feel pride for our history, then yes, I believe you should take on the burden of their guilt as well.


nmonteith

21-May-2009
12:39:08 PM

Great post foreverbumbly... i totally agree.


rodw

21-May-2009
12:49:16 PM

In think your getting confusued with remembering and not repeating mistakes, rather than feeling responsible for past mistakes.

For example, just say your dad murdered 5 people...should you feel guilty for that??? ...probably not....but appreciate the impact it had and vow not to repeat that mistake...but its certainly not your burden to go around and try and compensate for that years after the fact.

That was my point about banding about the "we" bit, and really is starting to stray a bit from the original discussion about significance of aboriginal sites...Ive said my point....doubt we will see eye to eye on this one so ill leave it at that....next thread please :)


nmonteith

21-May-2009
12:53:50 PM

Isn't one of the past mistakes the eraser of their culture?


foreverabumbly

21-May-2009
1:02:45 PM

On 21/05/2009 rodw wrote:
>In think your getting confusued with remembering and not repeating mistakes,
>rather than feeling responsible for past mistakes.

maybe.
I think its not about feeling responsible, but rather about being responsible. There are consequences to every action, we readily accept the consequences for successes, not so much the failures.

prehaps the consequences for destroying a culture is protecting their old landfill and garbage tips. I would much prefer to protect something more noble but we havnt left ourselves much of a choice. I personally dont think you personally should feel guilt, but I think we should take on the resposibility of that guilt.


foreverabumbly

21-May-2009
1:19:51 PM

On 21/05/2009 rodw wrote:
>
>For example, just say your dad murdered 5 people...should you feel guilty
>for that??? ...probably not....but appreciate the impact it had and vow
>not to repeat that mistake...but its certainly not your burden to go around
>and try and compensate for that years after the fact.
>

your right, and it does boil down to the 'we' thing. taking your above example I agree, but I dont think we are talking about individual as such here, its about one culture impacting on another. I dont want to atone for the specifics of what MY grandfather did, but as a 'we' we should atone for what 'we' did.

at any rate I dont think there is a right or wrong side to this arguement (if there was then I would say there would be no need to argue it), I only wanted to throw in another perspective, it was starting to turn into a 'we' versus Neil moment.

widewetandslippery

21-May-2009
1:24:17 PM

On 21/05/2009 surfinclimb wrote:
>On 21/05/2009 climberman wrote:
>>monkeyboy - no, the Aboriginal Heritage Information Management System
>>is not available for general perusal. It can be accesssed, for a fee,
>>with a good reason. Undertaking an activity likely to be prohibited
>in
>>a Reserve is unlikely to be considered a good reason.
>
>Please correct me if i'm wrong here But if find a "new" bouldering area
>and disrupt anything then I will get a fine, but if I want to do the right
>thing first and find out if this site is significant or on the heritage
>list then I have to pay for this priveledge of doing the right thing? It's
>not really making sense to me.
>

What climberman I think is saying is that any thing that any indidgenous "thing" unless it was created for commercial purpose.

Surfandclimb puts forward my query. How am I meant to know the pile a of shells is left by aboriganal or ethnic parties?


nmonteith

21-May-2009
1:35:43 PM

I think the reason that art sites locations are restricted to a 'pay-per-view' status is because there are some idiots in society who take great pleasure in destroying things. There is a lot of past history of people spray painting over art sites, or otherwise defacing it - thus the reason we have big cages over many of them.


porkpie

21-May-2009
1:55:59 PM

Look I am doing the right thing and saying stay away from the cliffs at Bannerman Road but even the most sympathetic to the protection of these sites must admit the current law is crazy. I canbe fined for stumbling across an Aboriginal area that is not obvious to me, I have no way of checking the status of this area. So do I go ahead and risk big fines?

The point still remains - there is no solution being offered by authorities - they just wave the big stick and look to impose fines. I am not a vandal but had I had time I would have developed these areas to the determent of the Aboriginals, Climbers and my bank balance.

Crazy situation - no wonder people are running out of patience and sympathy when it comes to protecting our indigenous past.


nmonteith

21-May-2009
2:05:09 PM

Maybe it's offense to even mention the existence of this art site on a public forum? :-0


The good Dr

21-May-2009
2:13:49 PM

Speaking from some prior experience, ie being involved in an archaeological dig in the past, at times what may appear to be a pile of rubbish (ie midden etc) can actually hide other items of interest under the surface. I know of middens that have been situated on top of older burial areas. The eras of habitation may in one midden can cover thousands of years. Basically what that means is that a pile of rubbish to you may be a source of significant information to others.

Like all things, the system of protection is not perfect. One reason for not releasing the 'whereabouts' information is that some people will actively vandalize/damage/remove these items for personal agendas (hatred, redevelopment, ignorance).

Sometimes things do get protected that are not original as well, which seems ridiculous, but...

I know of one case of art that is caged in that may be fake. I met an old gentleman at this particular crag who grew up on a farm in the area in the 1930's. They used this rock overhang as a family picnic spot for decades. We were generally talking about the artifacts in the area (which he knew well). In talking about the many locations he acknowledged all of the art I know exists there (quite a lot spread ot over the crag) and amusingly said that this particular caged art was not there when he grew up and had been added since (ie graffiti) and was now caged in!! It is signposted as well!!!


porkpie

21-May-2009
2:15:25 PM

I hope they don't give you and Kev a big fine ! :-(

I am thinking of going back to the crag and having a look for some paintings, when I was there previously I was only looking for handholds. Wonder if it is ok to just go and have a look for some old paintings and take a few photos?


contactgav

21-May-2009
4:29:51 PM

On 17/05/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>I just received this email from Kev Seymour
>
>
> the cliff and cave sites at bannerman rd are
>actually some of the last remaining aboriginal stencil and etched sites
>left intact and unaltered in the sydney area.
>most discoveries of sites throughout the greater sydney area (largely
>the hornsby plateau through to the hawkesbury)were made known in the sixties
>and have since largley been destroyed.
>the bannerman rd sites were discovered many years ago and have largely
>been kept a secret for fear they too would be damaged. these days very
>few significant cultural discoveries are made known to the public.
>
>
if i had something of signifcant importance and value, i'd look after it closely rather than leaving it up to fate and chance.

if it is one of the last intact areas, perhaps they should take steps to preserve it.

at the end of the day, if the bouldering is good and is not on the rock where the art work is, i'm climbing on it.

climberman

21-May-2009
4:46:32 PM

>
>What climberman I think is saying is that any thing that any indidgenous
>"thing" unless it was created for commercial purpose.
>
>Surfandclimb puts forward my query. How am I meant to know the pile a
>of shells is left by aboriganal or ethnic parties?

That was what I was saying. Well, it's what the law was saying, anyway.

wws and surfandclimb... the onus on the Developer (that's with a capital 'D') is to undertake due diligence with regards to such things. Some piles of shells can be hard, some are obvious as to their origin. If you were undertaking a Development, you would have a legitimate reason to search. As alluded to earlier, advertising something (even by 'protecting' it), is often a great way to get it vandalised. Often the best way to protect something is simply to leave it undisturbed.

rod - I am but a humble Proponent of development, rather than a law-maker.

rocksinmyhead - yeah, an exposure bill is draft law, out for comment. The amendments are slight w.r.t aboriginal heritage, but with a big potential impact for proponents. For the average punter nnot much should change.

If you find something, report it. They may already have it, and if not, hey, you've contributed something new to the world.

neil - there sort of are, and there sort of aren't people whose jobs it it to go and record stuff. There'd be one or two specialists in NSW whose job is finding new stuff. Maybe none. Researchers might do it (ie, academics) but Parks have their hands full managing what is there, and what is being developed, without going up and looking for more, particularly in areas where they are reserved by other means (Parks, reserves, etc) and development is prohibited.

Mr Juicey

18-Jun-2009
9:38:45 AM

I realise I am pretty late to this thread. But it raises an issue that I just don't quite understand.
I am an artist as well as a boulderer, I spend long periods of time in the Sydney bush completely absorbed both internally as well as externally with my surroundings. Many of the areas I climb on hold significant importance to myself and my friends who climb there. Why is it that a place that includes historic significance can't be enjoyed by us. I mean how many people other than boulderers and climbers frequent these areas. I think we are all smart enough to stay off specific pieces of rock ( that may include art etc) But what better way to celebrate our adopted land but experience sites like this in the most spiritual way we know.

climberman

18-Jun-2009
1:15:28 PM

Write to your Minister then.

There are 57 messages in this topic.