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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 39
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VIC Arapiles Fang Buttress & Surrounds (General) Fang Buttress [ Arapiles Guide | Arapiles Images ] 

Author
New routes beside Mantis
Dave J
5/12/2005
3:22:12 PM

>So not only has the classic and slightly commiting Strolling Right Hand
>Variant (24) been retro-bolted,

I thought you hated abseil pre-inspected boldness???

> but the few metres of new climbing even get a new name...

Just like "masada" or "punks in the gym".

Actually "The Prow" is a particularly good example....how do you justify this?

> I quite liked the idea of it being called Strolling Right-Hand
>Variant Right-Hand Variant Finish.

Or equally you could call it Mantis left hand variant...Or fang, right hand variant, right hand variant, or Or
XI, right hand variant, right hand variant, right hand variant...That would just make your job as a guidebook
writer hell. "Strolling Right hand variant, direct start, direct finish" is just a mouthfull which will take up
more page space and cost you more money on youre next print run (maybe you can give me a cut of the
proceeds).

The route should always have been independant of strolling and if Moorhead had done this in '81 you
would be calling him a visionary... It seems weird to me that moorhead never finished the route that way
himself ... he just did that little bit in the middle which was about as worthwhile as "straight outa compton"
(ie head up wackford squeers to half height, step left, do a move, step back right, carry on up
wackford)...Now it has a seperate start (courtesy of chris sheperd) and finish and ispretty much totally
independant of strolling it is so much the better route for it! It is probably the most popular 26 at the mount
these days (with Ingvar alone having done it more than a hundred times).

simey
5/12/2005
5:34:40 PM
On 5/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>I thought you hated abseil pre-inspected boldness???
I do, but Strolling RHV has received plenty of ground-up ascents since Moorhead. The exciting run-out above the fixed peg (backed up by a good wire) has stuck in my mind from the days when I climbed it.

>Actually "The Prow" is a particularly good example....how do you justify this?
I've gotta say that I always thought The Prow was open to criticism. I was always a fan of Station to Station and I honestly expected The Prow to be criticised for being a bit too squeezed in next to that route. The fact The Prow was predominantly bolted changed the vibe of climbing that wall. If those criticisms had been aired, I probably would have removed the bolts.

Regarding the naming of routes...I was taking the piss with your route. I just thought it was funny that on Strolling Buttress your new right-hand variant finish is approached via a series of routes and variants already referred to as Right-Hand Variants.

>The route should always have been independant of strolling and if Moorhead had done this in '81 you would be calling him a visionary... It seems weird to me that moorhead never finished the route that way himself ...Now it has a seperate start (courtesy of chris sheperd) and finish and is pretty much totally independant of strolling it is so much the better route for it! It is probably the most popular 26 at the mount these days (with Ingvar alone having done it more than a hundred times).

My honest opionion about this wall is that the best line on it is the original Strolling RHV (24). It is a classic weakness up the guts of the buttress and which is (was) a memorable and challenging ground-up lead. I've never worked out why Moorhead called it Strolling RHV given that it is more direct than the original Strolling.

My opinions come from the fact that almost fifteen years ago I led Strolling RHV and soon after rap-inspected the variant finish that you have now done. I felt that the climbing was out of keeping with the original route and that there is no way you would launch onto it without clipping a bolt from the original route. The difficulty of the climbing wasn't the issue, it was the fact that placing a bolt would alter the original route.

I considered Moorhead's original Strolling RHV to be on a par with other Arapiles classics such as Open Season, Despatched, Delerium Tremens, Lois Lane with regard quality and commitment. The fact that the new variant is very popular is more due to consumer convenience. Most of the people who climb the thing do it on top-rope anyway, which begs the question, why wasn't it left as a top-rope problem and the original classic left alone?



Rich
6/12/2005
12:21:15 AM
yeh i second that.. the 26 is an awesome route.
and I too was thinking something along the lines of strolling variant squared would have been good.. ;-)
Edit: i mean Ergonomics is good. Perhaps its because I didn't know its name when I was on it.

adski
6/12/2005
12:42:34 AM
You know somethings wrong when it becomes easier to refer to climbs by their grade than name.

Heidi
6/12/2005
8:28:52 AM
Yeah the grading system is such a meaningless component of climbing isn't it? I only ever choose routes that have a nice name
Nottobetaken
6/12/2005
8:40:26 AM
On 6/12/2005 Heidi wrote:
>Yeah the grading system is such a meaningless component of climbing isn't
>it? I only ever choose routes that have a nice name

and nice moves...

And on that note - what's the name of the new 29? I'm assuming it's not in line with simey's route name convention (ie. Strolling Further Right Hand Variant; or A Bloody Excellent Independant Route Right of Strolling RHV With A Direct Finish; or better still - The Direct Start To the Mantis Variant!
Dave J
6/12/2005
10:47:21 AM
Hey Simey

Im still trying to avoid the work I was trying to avoid earlier so let us continue.

On 5/12/2005 simey wrote:
>On 5/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>>>On 5/12/2005 simey wrote:
>>>So not only has the classic and slightly commiting Strolling Right Hand
>Variant (24) been retro-bolted,
>
>>I thought you hated abseil pre-inspected boldness???
>I do, but the route had received plenty of ground-up ascents since Moorhead.
>The exciting run-out above the fixed peg (backed up by a good wire) has
>stuck in my mind from the days when I climbed it.

when I first did it about 14 years ago the whole point of the route seemed to be doing the moves through
the bulge with nothing but the dodgy pin for protection...once you got to the good break past there the
climb eased off and at that point clipping a bolt would have made no difference to me as the route was
essentialy over. I placed the bolt high enough that it would be harder to clip it than it would be to just
scuttle off left and finish the climb so people trying to onsight the original would be doing themselfs no
favours by cliping that bolt. What spoiled the route for me was the discovery (some ten years later) that
the bolt could be backed up with a really good wire. As far as Im concerned that placement (unlikely ever
to be found by someone onsighting the route) totally changes the nature of the climb and should be
cemented in.

>My honest opionion about this wall is that the best line up it is the
>original Strolling RHV (24). It is a classic weakness up the guts of the
>buttress and which which is/was a memorable and challenging ground-up lead.
>I've never worked out why Moorhead called it Strolling RHV given that it
>is more direct than the original Strolling.

>
>I suppose my opinions come from the fact that almost fifteen years ago
>I led Strolling RHV and soon after rap-inspected the variant finish that
>you have now done. My honest opinion was that the climbing was out of keeping
>with the original route and that there is no way you would launch onto
>it without clipping a bolt from the original route.

The climbing on the new section is no harder than the orignal bit. Its just another chunk of 24 on top of the
two other chunks of 24 you've already done. Jill thinks the crux of the whole route is still the bit pulling
through the bulge on the original variant.

>I considered the original Strolling RHV to be one of the best of the slightly
>bold routes at Arapiles, akin to Open Season, Despatched, Delerium Tremens.

I thought so too until I found out about the sly wire...

I think its a bit like "It'll Never Fly" and "Have a Good Flight" the addition of a couple of bolts and a string
of moves at the end of all the "It'll Never Fly" climbing makes the route much better and more continuous.
There is nothing wrong with It'll Never Fly but you wouldnt bother doinging if you thought you could do
Have a Good Flight.

>The fact that the new variant is very popular is simply due to consumer
>convenience. Most of the people who climb the thing do it on top-rope anyway,
>which begs the question, why wasn't it left as a top-rope problem and the
>original classic left alone?

Half the people I know who done the route attempted it ground up and at least one of the managed to
onsight it. In stark contrast to this I dont think Ive seen anyone attempt strolling right hand variant ground
up in the last decade. Im sure there are a few people who have done it but compared to the number of
people who toprope it into submission they are negligible...Actually I'd be interested to hear from anyone
who did Strolling RHV (or even strolling original for that matter) ground up, in the last 10 years. Did you get
the sly wire to back up the pin and still manage onsight the route?

For all the people who have done and enjoyed (or even failed on and enjoyed) the route I have only ever
had negative feedback from one person ...and I dont really value their opinion anyway.
Dave J
6/12/2005
10:59:07 AM

>And on that note - what's the name of the new 29? I'm assuming it's not
>in line with simey's route name convention (ie. Strolling Further Right
>Hand Variant; or A Bloody Excellent Independant Route Right of Strolling
>RHV With A Direct Finish; or better still - The Direct Start To the Mantis
>Variant!

Its called Wagalak (after an animation project I was working on at the time)...I do like "A Bloody Excellent
Independant Route Right of Strolling RHV With A Direct Finish" Though...But then you have all of the
inevitible linkups to consider. When Nathan comes along in a month or so and links. "A Bloody Excellent
Independant Route Right of Strolling RHV With A Direct Finish" back into "Strolling Right Hand Variant,
Variant Start, Direct Finish" ...you're going to have "A Bloody Excellent Independant Route Right of
Strolling RHV With A Direct Finish, Strolling Right Hand Variant, Variant Start, Direct Finish, Connection"
And that's not going to look very good on his CV is it?

I think short and sweet is a good route naming policy.
Nottobetaken
6/12/2005
11:30:54 AM
On 6/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>I think short and sweet is a good route naming policy.

Absolutely.
And as an indication of how good Ergonomics actually is - I bumped into an American 2 weekends ago that walked right up to me and stated "Do you want a really crap route to go and do?" - this - after falling off it for the umpteenth time. He was actually joking - for he then went on to described how brilliant the climbing was. It's just that he kept falling off the upper crux. Invested the majority of his Arapiles stay doing just that.

A great route indeed. I also find it quite strange how Moorhead didn't finish up that streak - but then a similar example would be his efforts with Escape - why didn't he do the proper start (now The Great Escape). It's not like he wasn't qualified - and the climbing is - well - great. Maybe he just had enough on his plate at the time...
Dave J
6/12/2005
12:01:43 PM
On 6/12/2005 Crossdresser wrote:
>On 6/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>>I think short and sweet is a good route naming policy.
>
>Absolutely.
>And as an indication of how good Ergonomics actually is - I bumped into
>an American 2 weekends ago that walked right up to me and stated "Do you
>want a really crap route to go and do?" - this - after falling off it for
>the umpteenth time. He was actually joking - for he then went on to described
>how brilliant the climbing was. It's just that he kept falling off the
>upper crux. Invested the majority of his Arapiles stay doing just that.
>
>A great route indeed. I also find it quite strange how Moorhead didn't
>finish up that streak - but then a similar example would be his efforts
>with Escape - why didn't he do the proper start (now The Great Escape).
>It's not like he wasn't qualified - and the climbing is - well - great.
>Maybe he just had enough on his plate at the time...

A lot of wierd things happened in the 80s...how about fortress? Its hard to imagine why someone would
even think of skulking in from the left on crystally edges when there was a perfectly good line of spaced
jugs going straight up from the bottom....And if you think thats wierd, how about kachoong?
Originally that was done via some strange line up on on the right and Glenn Tempest was originally
scoffed at for adding the worthless left hand variant (the one that takes the obvious big flake line that
blasts straight out through the middle of the roof).
Dave J
6/12/2005
12:11:39 PM
On 6/12/2005 Crossdresser wrote:
>On 6/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>>I think short and sweet is a good route naming policy.
>
>Absolutely.
>And as an indication of how good Ergonomics actually is - I bumped into
>an American 2 weekends ago that walked right up to me and stated "Do you
>want a really crap route to go and do?" - this - after falling off it for
>the umpteenth time. He was actually joking - for he then went on to described
>how brilliant the climbing was. It's just that he kept falling off the
>upper crux. Invested the majority of his Arapiles stay doing just that.
>

Well if you're going to spend 2 weeks on a single route at araps...it might as well be the best one there!

>A great route indeed. I also find it quite strange how Moorhead didn't
>finish up that streak - but then a similar example would be his efforts
>with Escape - why didn't he do the proper start (now The Great Escape).
>It's not like he wasn't qualified - and the climbing is - well - great.
>Maybe he just had enough on his plate at the time...

A lot of wierd things happened in the 80s...how about fortress? Its hard to imagine why someone would
even think of skulking in from the left on crystally edges when there was a perfectly good line of spaced
jugs going straight up from the bottom....And if you think thats wierd, how about kachoong? Originally that
was done via some strange line up on on the right and Glenn Tempest was originally scoffed at for adding
the worthless left hand variant (the one that takes the obvious big flake line that blasts straight out
through the middle of the roof).
duglash
6/12/2005
12:58:56 PM
Yeah, Ergonimics is brilliant, bist route on the wall (not thit ive done Wigilik, im sure it's choice bit it's not
is continuous) and one of the best 26's around. Strolling RHV is not retrobolted by it - it's much harder to
move R and clip the bolt than it is to grab the big jug and continue L.

Been meaning to post a topo of this wall since it's rediscovery.

Hawkman
6/12/2005
1:02:10 PM
ya a topo would be great. where does ergonomics start? as for strolling?
Dave J
6/12/2005
1:46:03 PM
On 6/12/2005 steve wrote:
>ya a topo would be great. where does ergonomics start? as for strolling?

you can either start up the strolling bit or go up directly under the bolt...it makes no odds....one way is
about 15 and the other about 17. It all starts when you get to the first bolt.

Eduardo Slabofvic
6/12/2005
3:13:02 PM
Sounds like your using your right hand a bit there, Simey.
simey
6/12/2005
6:00:05 PM
On 6/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>Hey Simey
>Im still trying to avoid the work I was trying to avoid earlier so let us continue.

Sorry Dave, I've only just returned home. You've probably been forced to do some work in the meantime.

I'm not disputing that Ergonomics, Strolling RHV Squared (I like that), or whatever it's called, offers very good climbing, but to say that Moorhead should have climbed it that way on the first ascent would be like saying that the first ascent team on Watchtower Crack should have climbed the first three pitches of that route and then moved right and finished up Gollum... just because it's harder.

As for the sly wire on Strolling RHV... well I don't think it is that sly. It's just that with the fixed peg, people assumed that there wasn't any good gear ,so they tended not to look. I don't even know why Moorhead placed that peg to begin with.

And although you have tried to place the bolt on your new variant a bit to the side of the original route, the reality is that you still clip it from the same holds. Even though the major difficulties on Strolling RHV are over at that point, the temptation to clip it would be great, particularly if you are feeling a bit strung out.

I know everyone loves the moves of the new finish and thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread, but I do believe that the climbing is forced. The very fact that you need to make a squishy, blind traverse right, which you wouldn't contemplate doing without the security of that bolt, is testament to that.

Everyone talks about 'the moves' as though that is the only criteria for assessing a route. But I get more of a buzz climbing a quality route that follows a weakness through imposing territory, rather than falling my way up a string of bolts that tackle the line of most resistance.

I am willing to accept that I am in the minority of one with my opinion, but I do feel the original Strolling RHV was a great route and the new route (however good it is) alters the character of the old route. Hopefully there won't be too many cases of this happening on other Arapiles classics in the future.

Dave J
7/12/2005
3:24:28 PM
On 6/12/2005 simey wrote:
>On 6/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>>Hey Simey
>>Im still trying to avoid the work I was trying to avoid earlier so let
>us continue.
>
>Sorry Dave, I've only just returned home. You've probably been forced
>to do some work in the meantime.
>
>I'm not disputing that Ergonomics, Strolling RHV Squared (I like that),
>or whatever it's called, offers very good climbing, but to say that Moorhead
>should have climbed it that way on the first ascent would be like saying
>that the first ascent team on Watchtower Crack should have climbed the
>first three pitches of that route and then moved right and finished up
>Gollum... just because it's harder.

I think if they'd traversed off left though and finished up Arachnus ... just because it was easier, someone
would have come in pretty soon to make amends.

Another example... Two thirds of the way up serpentine it is possible to step off left into seventh pillar
rather than move back right into the second crux of the route. This would have made the route heaps
easier and saved Malcolm days of effort but I'm pretty sure it never even occurred to him to do it because
it would have been a waste of an opportunity to do something really good (if anyone out there looking for a
really lame new link up to do ... I think this one is still up for grabs).

I dont think easiness is the main reason why people go climbing. In fact I would go so far as to say that
people who think its pointless to carry on climbing up the middle of the wall because its easier to traverse
off at half height are not so different to people who think that climbing at arapiles is stupid because it is
easier to drive up 'round the back.

If the easiest line is what people are really looking for...new route activity at arapiles could have stopped
back in the early 1800s when Major Mitch rode his horse to the summit.

>As for the sly wire on Strolling RHV... well I don't think it is that
>sly. It's just that with the fixed peg, people assumed that there wasn't
>any good gear ,so they tended not to look.

Did you place the wire onsight Simey? ... or did you have to have a sit on the piton first?

For all the comments here I havent seen anyone mention that yes they managed to find the placement
onsight (or anyone who has even done the route ground up in the last ten years).


>I know everyone loves the moves of the new finish and thinks it is the
>best thing since sliced bread, but I do believe that the climbing is forced.
>The very fact that you need to make a squishy, blind traverse right,

Its a nice balancey move...You're such a thug Simey...you just need to learn to use your feet a bit more.

>which you wouldn't contemplate doing without the security of that bolt, is testament to that.

I could have done it without either of the bolts Simey...but since I had already toproped it that would have
been a bit pathetic. If it hadn't been such a good thing I probably would have just left it alone or lead it on
the gear once and let it fade into obscurity but it seemed a shame to do that with what I thought was one
of the better 26s at the mount (and Ive done quite a few of the others).

>Everyone talks about 'the moves' as though that is the only criteria for
>assessing a route. But I get more of a buzz climbing a quality route that
>follows a weakness through imposing territory, rather than falling my way
>up a string of bolts that tackle the line of most resistance.

The line has good moves, a great position, perfect rock and it "follows a weakness (the seam) through
imposing territory" unlike strolling RHV which traverses off left to avoid the imposing territory. An in spite
of it having bolts, the last of the hard moves is far enough above them that the climbing is by no means
dull.

>I am willing to accept that I am in the minority of one with my opinion,
>but I do feel the original Strolling RHV was a great route and the new
>route (however good it is) alters the character of the old route.

The poor quality of the piton was always what made the route what it was for me ... and quite a few others
I suspect. SRHV is a pretty good route ... but Ergonomics is a significant improvement.


>Hopefully there won't be too many cases of this happening on other Arapiles classics
>in the future.

Not sure if there if there are many gems like this still waiting to be unearthed.

My god ...Ive never one so much hyping of a route before in my life...lucky for the route I'm supposed to
be doing my tax right now.
simey
7/12/2005
5:16:47 PM
On 7/12/2005 Dave J wrote:
>I dont think easiness is the main reason why people go climbing. In fact I would go so far as to say that people who think its pointless to carry on climbing up the middle of the wall because its easier to traverse off at half height are not so different to people who think that climbing at arapiles is stupid because it is easier to drive up 'round the back.

Different people are motivated by different things. Some climbers think that climbing straight-through no-hands rests (ie. Nathan) improves a lot of routes. Generally I am more inspired by the aesthetics of 'the line', irrespective of whether the line eases off, or provides a rest. Strolling RHV follows a geological weakness and offers pretty consistent climbing all the way. At no point does the climb shirk the issue and traverse off.

>Did you place the wire onsight Simey? ... or did you have to have a sit on the piton first?

As for finding the wire near the peg... no I didn't find it onsight. I assumed the fixed peg meant there wasn't any other gear, so I didn't even look when I reached that point. I eventually found myself backing off the bulge because I didn't trust the peg and couldn't see any other gear for quite a long way. Sitting on the rope I was surprised to see the placement, so I lowered off, climbed back up, placed the wire and kept going. Afterwards I mentioned it in the guide, so other people wouldn't assume the peg was the only gear.

Well Dave, it's time I did some work, so I think we will just have to agree to disagree. But one of these days I'll see if I can fall my way up your route... providing the queue to get on it isn't too long that is.




phil_nev
30/01/2009
2:35:09 PM
I think its called gordys hyperlink.

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