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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

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Author
Rings on Return of the Toe Cutter Gang - Mt York
spicelab
7/08/2012
11:44:46 AM
On 7/08/2012 Batey wrote:

>
>Isnt there plenty of "SAFE" climbs already in the area?

There can never be enough "SAFE" climbs out there.

If you don't understand this it's because you're selfish and want to deny right-thinking folk of their birthright to frolic on every millimetre of rock on Earth.

Macciza
7/08/2012
12:16:05 PM
On 7/08/2012 spicelab wrote:
>There can never be enough "SAFE" climbs out there.
>
>If you don't understand this it's because you're selfish and want to deny
>right-thinking folk of their birthright to frolic on every millimetre of rock on Earth.

Climbing is inherently not 'SAFE' . . .
And similarly there can never be enough bold climbs - in fact there are increasingly fewer due to selfish spurt climbers.

Those routes are part of the history of Blue Mountains climbing and deserve respect.
They are a testament to a different approach to climbing that is desecrated by the recent additions.
And if you think that the addition of so many rings to an established bold climb is ok,
then why is it not equally ok for me to remove a few clips of Exhibition Wall to make it spicier . .

If you can't climb it, for whatever reason, then you can't climb it - leave it alone and go climb something you can climb!
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
12:18:22 PM
On 7/08/2012 Samuel wrote:
>Fact is. No body climbed it. And if you feel so strongly go jump on it
>and make the first clip where the original first bolt was. Then go mouthing
>off. The ground has eroded, so the start is now lower. The ledge has gotten
>smaller, and there is a tree missing that may have stopped you from falling
>off the ledge if you where lucky. It has not been over bolted, just made
>safe and it still has a feel of boldness.

Can you fuchin' hear yourself? "Oh, the ground has eroded, the ledge is smaller, tectonic movements have tilted the wall over by 0.0068 of a degree"..........therefore ringbolts. Did you put 4 bolts into a section which used to have none? How does it "still have the feel of boldness"?

There's just so much rock in that vertical style up there, you can pretty much do the same moves at any degree of scariness you like. The main defining feature of the things is how run out they are.

You want safe? Go do Toyland and Letters to the Editor. Medium spicy? Hollow Men and Aesthetic Images. The routes you've just fuched up and Warwick Baird's routes near Echo Crack strike me as the ones which any thinking climber would have left alone.

If you desperately needed to do the moves, why not just toprope? Oh, that's right, you're a dipshit sydney sport climber. The only mode you operate in is bottom belay and clipping rings.

BlankSlab
7/08/2012
12:35:06 PM
On 7/08/2012 spicelab wrote:
>On 7/08/2012 Batey wrote:
>
>>
>>Isnt there plenty of "SAFE" climbs already in the area?
>
>There can never be enough "SAFE" climbs out there.
>
>If you don't understand this it's because you're selfish and want to deny
>right-thinking folk of their birthright to frolic on every millimetre of
>rock on Earth.

I would have thought it as selfish to alter something for ones own personal gain.

nmonteith
7/08/2012
12:38:01 PM
Adding lots of extra bolts to classic bold 80s style wall is just wrong. Those routes we're all about head space and commitment (and strong finger nails).
Olbert
7/08/2012
12:48:36 PM
On 7/08/2012 spicelab wrote:
>On 7/08/2012 Batey wrote:
>
>>
>>Isnt there plenty of "SAFE" climbs already in the area?
>
>There can never be enough "SAFE" climbs out there.
>
>If you don't understand this it's because you're selfish and want to deny
>right-thinking folk of their birthright to frolic on every millimetre of
>rock on Earth.

For those of you who don't venture out on the internets too often I will help clarify something: Spicelab was being sarcastic. He doesn't actually believe that people who want a few non-safe climbs out there are selfish.

Macciza
7/08/2012
12:51:47 PM
On 7/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

What he said, hear, here . . . .

Though I like to think that these types of climbs ( love some of Bairds stuff) are the ones that the climber would think long and hard about before trying - in what ever fashion . . .
For me there is often quite a battle before even getting on some of these routes - some have been love hate relationships, many have pushed my ethics, morality, judgement, ability etc
And from my experience and in my climbing belief system such things are important - the few people that climb these routes inspires others to climb them in a similar style,
and many who would like to climb them, but probably never will, often like the fact that there actually are people who do climb them like that - so it destroys those dreams, aspirations as well

For my part I climbed EW in the early 90's and awed by the routes in question . . .
By the early 00's they had become possible to approach

From memory I bouldered the first moves and traversed a bit after a few goes . . .
Then ended up getting a toprope and giving it a serious shot - focused on the onsight.
Went pretty well, quite a way up - second shot I think I almost made the first clip after a quick clean
That was with the Hot Rock tour - trying to explain the significance of the route to visiting climbers
Some went 'Cool, like the B-Y-R, or some weird grit ethic - some went WTF? but then they couldn't understand bolt plates either . . .

More recently was down there earlier in the year with Zac and Hugh (before this debauchery) and we had a look at it again
Zac bouldered the first moves, jumped off etc - it reignited an old flame in me - I guess Zac figured it could be worth a definite serious look sometime

And then it gets retro-ronged, hmm yeah I guess I may be a little upset . . .

hangdog
7/08/2012
2:01:21 PM
I will say it again.
If you want to be bold don't clip the new bolts. Its really simple.
Or if you want a modern experience clip them. Or top rope if you want. Its up to you.
All this noise about modernising or rebolting routes. Some of these routes are very bold and full credit to the first ascentionists but rebolting them doesn't change the actual route just the protectability of it and the headspace. If you get off on scaring yourself shitless then solo it.
It is strange to me that some climbers complain about replacing carrot bolts with rings (relocating or adding extra protection ) Lament the good old bold days but happily use a lightweight rope and state of the art shoes. If you really miss the full experience then grab a pair of fires or whatever WB was wearing and then do it using the original protection points. It seems to me that climbers pick and choose what they miss about the old bold days.
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
2:37:22 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
>It
>seems to me that climbers pick and choose what they miss about the old
>bold days.

I miss the predominant climbing culture being one in which pussies such as yourself were too ashamed to voice their pussy opinions.

Macciza
7/08/2012
2:39:11 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
>I will say it again.
>If you want to be bold don't clip the new bolts. Its really simple.

To me - as someone who has been known to enjoy this sort of stuff on occasion - this statement shows a lack of understanding of the reality of the situation on such routes.
It is not just a matter of 'not clipping the bolts' - there are many routes that I do that on anyway, including climbing bolted routes on gear instead - that's not the only point here . . .

Not having something to clip is a very different situation - having something to clip that you have decided not to use is in someways worse because of the distraction - of both failure and safety - it offers . .
I really don't think that I would want to be up there with the additional mental burden they would present - though perhaps it would work, I could spit on them as I climbed past for extra psyche

How about a compromise - we chop the first two totally unnecessary ones and then just hacksaw once through the rest of the rings to add a bit of spice back - they'll still be pretty bomber . . .


Macciza
7/08/2012
2:44:56 PM
Oh and re the use of high tech gear for bold routes . .

With all the techie stuff we have these days, shouldn't the true challenge of modern climbing be to free climb without fixed aid?
I long for the day when successfully freeing (via removable gear etc) a bolted routes allows you to remove the rings previously used.

I think the more interesting question in all this is why is climbing going so lame when we have such amazing gear and ability these days . . .
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
2:58:36 PM
Actually, there's no climbing gear that has come out since I've been climbing which makes those vertical Blueys wall routes any easier. In fact, 90% of the climbing shoe models on sale these days are substantially worse for edging than good ol' Boreal Aces. Light ropes? Piss off, as if 100g makes that much difference!

Hangdog, you don't know what the fuch you're talking about. If you think the 'climbing' and the seriousness of the route are totally decoupled, you've obviously never attempted to lead a serious route. Anyway, those retrobolts are getting chopped. If you put 'em back in, I'll begin punitive bolt removal from the pussy playgrounds of Shipley, Bardens, and the Glen.

90% of Blueys climbing is fully softc--k-friendly. Stop trying to poach routes from the small number which are held in reserve for proper climbers.

nmonteith
7/08/2012
3:10:35 PM
These routes are made for top-roping. Dead vertical, easy to access top and half a rope length in height. If you can't get the guts to climb them as they were originally done then just top rope them. Or inspect massively on abseil, preplace the gear with giant slings - whatever floats your boat.
uwhp510
7/08/2012
3:15:56 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
>I will say it again.
>If you want to be bold don't clip the new bolts. Its really simple.

For future reference, anyone considering using the above to justify retro-bolting stuff; you're a knob end with stupid opinions that you should keep private, lest people find out about them.

tnd
7/08/2012
3:31:00 PM
Much as I hate to be in agreement with Every Day Retard...cool with Macca, he can actually climb and is willing to attempt routes like this, but...retrobolting these routes was pretty dumb. One route on this wall was previously chopped after retroing, so it's obviously dear to someone's heart.

These routes are pretty worthless really; they're a testament to contrived boldness, not real boldness. But there is a real route up the middle of this wall which is all trad (in that it was FA'd on natural gear after top-rope practice) and it sounds like these new rings will affect that. There are any number of safe ring bolted routes around, there's no reason for these old routes to join the collection.

The way the harder routes were (necky), it was good being able to climb Exhibition Wall knowing that you'd have the whole face to yourself. So chop away.

hangdog
7/08/2012
4:44:36 PM
Ok that stirred things up a bit.
ODH
Firstly you haven't got a phucking clue what i have or haven't done. So hold your personal attacks until you are in a position to repeat them to me personally.(although i doubt very much that you have the balls) I have a pretty good understanding of how climbing works. If you want to make a climb serious again then skip the bolts. My guess is you will chop them and still not do the route anyway.
Do you honestly believe that shoes have not improved since Boreal Aces? If you believe that then you more misguided than i first thought, I have sitting on the shelf behind a brand new pair of EBS and Fires. They were state of the art when they first came out now a pair Rock Pillars is far and away a better shoe. Are you wearing your Aces still? I bet not.
I don,t miss much about the old days. What i do miss are the days when soft kocks couldnt hide behind the internet to have a go at others.

grantoss
7/08/2012
4:55:37 PM
On 7/08/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>These routes are made for top-roping. Dead vertical, easy to access top
>and half a rope length in height. If you can't get the guts to climb them
>as they were originally done then just top rope them. Or inspect massively
>on abseil, preplace the gear with giant slings - whatever floats your boat.

I think Neil makes a pretty good point. These routes are already consumer friendly, if you take the time to set them up. You dont need to put your ankles on the line. Retro-ing is unnecessary and ruins the line for those who would like to try the route in its original format.
widewetandslippery
7/08/2012
4:56:06 PM
One day hero getting butchered is a gooid route namew
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
5:45:04 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:

>Firstly you haven't got a phucking clue what i have or haven't done.

Sounds like you spent the 80's as Andrew Penny's rope-boy, wishing you had the balls to lead some stuff........probably took 15yrs off to raise a family, came back via a gym, started ticking 'big numbers' on overgraded steep sport routes. Now that you're a "good climber" you're trying to go back and clean up all the hard wall routes which you wish you'd done back then..........but they're too scary and gym-fitness doesn't help, so you're "modernising" them in order to maintain the delusion that you're better than you used to be?

Am I close?

>I have
>a pretty good understanding of how climbing works. If you want to make
>a climb serious again then skip the bolts.

No, having the bolts there changes things. We've been through this, much better for the pussies to toprope than the hardmen skip bolts. Notice how everyone else responding to you is also saying the same thing?

>Do you honestly believe that shoes have not improved since Boreal Aces?

This is a bit of a tangent, but it kinda shows how little you know about climbing. For vertical routes dependant on edging small, positive holds, stiff shoes make it grades easier. Boreal rubber was not the best, but Aces or Ballets resoled with 5.10 rubber were about as good as it ever got for edging. (notice how Tommy Caldwell's expensive new signature shoe looks more or less the same as a hightop from the 80's?). Anyway, none of this is news to the good climbers I know. Everyone smart has worked out that shoes have generally gotten better for steep stuff but worse for vertical edging and slabs.

>I don,t miss much about the old days.

Yeah, I bet you didn't get a whole lot of respect from the hardmen back then. Must be disappointing to outlast them, only to find that your attempts to pussify climbing are still not welcome.

btw, I don't need to drive up to chop your softc--k retrobolts, sounds like the locals will see to it in short order.

E. Wells
7/08/2012
5:46:23 PM
Ok. Ruins the line for .....who? Answer...nobody. Thats who has done it lately. Oh but a few mexicans and frothers are dreaming someone will step up (only to step down again) so theyre gonna chop it. Phuck me. If you balls it up even now you might break your ankles, does that make you happier? btw what I wrote about software freak is B.S. The new 17 is a line of its own, nabbing a bit of ferny groove. It would be great to see some new 'bolts' replacing the 'used to be new' 'bolts' on s.f too.

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There are 383 messages in this topic.

 

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